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My guest for Episode #216 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Cathy Fyock, The Biz Book Strategist.
She leads her own consulting/coaching/speaking practice and has been a member of the National Speakers Association for more than 20 years. Cathy has been a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP) since 1993. Since starting her coaching business in 2014, she’s helped more nearly 200 professionals become published authors — including me!
She coached me through the writing and publication of my 2018 book, Measures of Success, and she has been coaching me on the book I’m currently finishing up, The Mistakes That Make Us. The Kindle version is available tomorrow!
Cathy has written books including On Your Mark: From First Word to First Draft in Six Weeks, Blog2Book: Repurposing Content to Discover the Book You’ve Already Written, The Speaker Author: Sell More Books and Book More Speeches, and the WSJ, USA Today, and Amazon best-seller, Authority. Her new book, which I've endorsed, is Writer Crisis Hotline — available now!
In this episode, Cathy shares her favorite mistake story about leaving a business she had started to take a job where she could be “part of a team.” Was it a mistake to take a job with that particular team or to take a regular job anywhere? Did it become easier to move on from jobs over time? What led Cathy to start her latest business based on what she had learned, including what she learned about herself?
We discuss that, along with common mistakes that book authors make when writing and/or publishing their books. We also discuss the choice between traditional publishers, “self” publishing, and “hybrid publishers.”
Questions and Topics:
- Tell us about starting your current business…
- Writing – following a passion?
- Understanding the business model around your book?
- A book is like a startup?
- The learning that happens while writing a book
- Ethical situation when it comes to ghostwriting (by a human) or new AI tools?
- Common book writing mistakes?
- Mistakes related to the publishing phase?
- Mistake titles? Mistake covers?
- The connection between writing and speaking
- Book pricing – finding the sweet spot?“Self publishing” vs. traditional publishing? How to choose?
- Hybrid publishing? – hire a general contractor
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- Full transcript
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Automated Transcript (Likely Contains Mistakes)
Mark Graban (1s):
Episode 216 Cathy Fyock, the business book strategist.
Cathy Fyock (5s):
Well, it's, it's interesting how this cause is a cause for great contemplation and introspection.
Mark Graban (17s):
I'm Mark Graban. This is My Favorite Mistake. In this podcast, you'll hear business leaders and other really interesting people talking about their favorite mistakes because we all make mistakes. But what matters is learning from our mistakes instead of repeating them over and over again. So, this is the place for honest reflection and conversation, personal growth and professional success. Visit our website at MyFavoriteMistakePodcast.com. To learn more about Cathy, her work, her books, and more. Look for links in the show notes or go to markgraban.com/mistake216. As always, thanks for listening.
Mark Graban (57s):
Why Hi, everybody? Welcome back to the podcast. my guest today is Cathy Fyock, the business book strategist. Cathy leads her own consulting and coaching and speaking practice. She's been a member of the National Speakers Association for more than 30 years, and she's a Certified Speaking Professional. She started a coaching business in 2014. She's helped nearly, or maybe it's over 200 professionals, over become published authors, including me. So Cathy coached me through the writing and publication of my most recent book, Measures of Success. And Cathy has again been coaching me on the book. I'm trying to get finished up here, the Mistakes that make us, so, before I tell you all about Cathy's own books, Cathy, thank you for being here.
Mark Graban (1m 38s):
How are you?
Cathy Fyock (1m 39s):
Great to be here. Thanks so much, Mark.
Mark Graban (1m 42s):
Well, I'm excited to, you know, hear your story and, and there's a lot we can talk about here today, but I will tell everyone first, and, and correct me if we might be missing something. You've written so many books here, On Your Mark: from first word to First draft in six weeks, blog to book repurposing content to discover the book you've already written. The speaker Author saw more books and book, more speech or book, more speeches, and the Wall Street Journal, USA Today and Amazon Bestseller “Authority.” Anything I, I feel like there, gosh, there's the one that you co-wrote with Everett. Remind me the title of that one.
Cathy Fyock (2m 17s):
Right, right. My new book, which is a workbook for authors who are wanting to kind of pull together all their thoughts and the strategic direction for their book. So that's the newest book, my new book.
Mark Graban (2m 30s):
So I'll put links in the show notes to Cathy's website. You can find her Of course on Amazon, find her books there. So, you know, Cathy, as we always do here, I'm curious to hear what your story is going to be. What would you say is your favorite mistake?
Cathy Fyock (2m 47s):
Well, it's, it's interesting how this cause is a cause for great contemplation and introspection, but as I'm thinking back, it was at a time when I was working in my own business and things were sort of falling apart in my personal life. My mom passed away, she had worked with me in the business and things just weren't as easy or coming to me as, as easily as they were before. And I thought that I needed to leave my own business and be a part of a team.
Cathy Fyock (3m 30s):
And that really has been my biggest mistake, although, as I'm thinking back on it, I'm not, I'm not sure that there's any way I could have learned the lesson other than having gone through it. Because what happened was I did join a team and it was as many teams are very dysfunctional. And, and what I found was that while yes, I do love working with other people, I love collaborating with others, what I found was that it didn't allow me the opportunity to set my own vision, set my own course, make my decisions, make my, make my own Mistakes.
Cathy Fyock (4m 19s):
Actually, I felt like I was being held back by the vision or the, the, the thinking of someone else, which is fine when you join in an organization, you know, you can't be the one in charge all the time. But I guess after so many years of being an entrepreneur, making my decisions, really loving, loving the, the aspects of making my decisions going into a, a team environment was really wrong. So I had to make the mistake though several more times. I, I went from that organization to another organization that was equally but differently dysfunctional, and then another team.
Cathy Fyock (5m 8s):
And then finally I had the wherewithal to say, I need to get back to my own company, call my own shots, do it my way. And I've learned that I really am unemployable.
Mark Graban (5m 25s):
Yeah. What wa was was that, well, thank you for sharing all that and I, I think there's a little more we can, you know, un unpack from all that. Was your previous business similar to what you're doing now or was it, was it different?
Cathy Fyock (5m 37s):
It, it was, it was, I was a human resources consultant. I did speaking and training primarily more than consulting. I was on faculty with the Society for Human Resource Management. It was a really a great business. I'd written books as a strategy to differentiate myself and grow myself in the marketplace. So in many ways I was very, very successful. I was just starting to feel very lonely. And I think that was really precipitated more by the, the death of my mom who had been my work partner than anything. In fact, we, we even authored a book together, so that's how close we were.
Mark Graban (6m 20s):
Yeah. Gosh. Was it like, when you were in that first organization, how, how long did you stay? Was it, was it difficult to admit the mistake? Yes,
Cathy Fyock (6m 32s):
Yes, it was. Or
Mark Graban (6m 33s):
Perhaps
Cathy Fyock (6m 34s):
Tell tell us. I didn't really even admit it at first. I just thought I'd pick the wrong team. But,
Mark Graban (6m 43s):
So the question was, yeah, wrong, wrong team or being on any team of, of was,
Cathy Fyock (6m 49s):
I thought, yeah. So I thought at first it was just being on the wrong team. I found that not everyone had the same work ethic that I did. I am like, I like to work hard and be rewarded for that hard work and then play hard. So I don't mind working hard, but, but I also don't, and I don't mind people having a good time, but let's get our work done and let's, let's move forward with the order of the business and, and get that work done.
Mark Graban (7m 28s):
So, so how long was it before you left that, that first company try
Cathy Fyock (7m 32s):
Again? Oh, it was four years. I gave it a good four years. And, and really finally they asked me to leave and he had asked me, it was a company that was doing primarily financial consulting and I was their recruiter and I also managed their human capital projects. And I was actually one of the best salespeople in the whole country for human capital projects. But my boss came to me and said, you know, we're really not a human capital company. We are a financial company. We wanna stay in our lane and we want to do that.
Cathy Fyock (8m 14s):
So you, you can continue with this company, but you will need to, if you get any human capital work, you will not get credit for it. You will, you will not be encouraged to do any of the human capital things that you have been doing in the past. And, you know, my whole career up to that point had been in building my reputation, building thought leadership within the human capital community. And, and, and at first my reaction when he came to me was like, oh, I can do it because I know I can do it, but did I want to do it?
Cathy Fyock (8m 57s):
And was it worth it for me to do it? And was I offering my best self to the organization if I was going to be in this space that I really, I'm not qualified for, i I have no interest or passion for. So, so after much contemplation, I said, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go in another direction. And so I left the organization and joined another human capital organization and then another human capital organization. I was at the second organization for about a year and a half and the third one for a year. And then I finally found my direction, my calling Yeah.
Cathy Fyock (9m 40s):
To go forward as a book coach. Yeah.
Mark Graban (9m 42s):
So you, I mean, you, you, you touch on so many interesting points here and, and challenges a lot of us face of recognizing a problem. Have we a, a mistake? Have we framed it properly? you know, being, being stuck in that situation of feels like a mistake, but I want to, I, I feel like I can make it better. I want to see it through versus cutting bas and, and moving on. I mean, af after the first time you, you talked about how it was four years, year and a half, one year. What was it, did it become easier to, to come to the realization of, okay, gosh, I need to move on, or
Cathy Fyock (10m 23s):
Yes. More about that? It did, because I was thinking at first, I, I was thinking, you know, I just had found the wrong team. And, and after the first experience, I'm not sure that hypothesis was untrue or true. So I thought I just need to be on a different team. So I was on a different team with no better results. And then the third team, and I'm like, okay, Cathy, let's learn from this. And perhaps you don't need to be on a team. Perhaps, perhaps you are a solopreneur who just needs collaboration and to find lots of opportunities for community and for connection with others.
Cathy Fyock (11m 8s):
Yeah. And, and that's really where I ended up. Yeah.
Mark Graban (11m 11s):
So then I, I'd love to hear a little bit more of the story then of you, you, you mentioned having that spark of saying, you know, you're gonna form the business that, that you're doing now, working with the authors, you know, tell, tell us a little bit more of the, the origin story of the current business.
Cathy Fyock (11m 26s):
Okay, I stumbled into it. Yeah. Basically I was working for this company, I was not happy. I didn't know what to do next. I was working as an HR consultant and thinking, I'm not even sure I wanna be an HR consultant anymore. I'm just not sure that that's the right space for me. And I got a call out of the blue as sometimes these things happen from my chapter of the National Speakers Association. Then the president of the local chapter said, Cathy, I heard a rumor that you wrote one of your books in less than six weeks. And I said, well, actually I wrote four of my five books at the time in less than six weeks.
Cathy Fyock (12m 6s):
And he said, that is amazing. Do you have a process? And I thought about it, I thought that was a really great question. I thought, yeah, I guess I do have a process. He said, would you be willing to give a program for a chapter about your process? And I said, yes, absolutely. He said, but before you say yes, he said, we have a couple of our chapter members who are working on their books, would you be willing to coach them using your process and then give your presentation to the chapter? And I said, oh, you had me at give a presentation
Mark Graban (12m 41s):
As a speaker.
Cathy Fyock (12m 42s):
So I started, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I started coaching these two women who were friends of mine, and pretty quickly they said, have you ever thought about being a book coach? And my response was, I don't even know, is that, is that a thing? Is there a need? And they said, oh, yes, yes. And so fast forward to my presentation to the chapter, my friends Of course, I've been a member for more than 30 years. My friends came up to me and said, Cathy, have you ever thought about being a book coach? And I thought, okay, this is the sign. This is what I need to be doing next. So that was in the spring of 2013, and by January, 2014, I launched my new business and Of course what I needed to do in order to position and pivot.
Cathy Fyock (13m 34s):
Cuz I really didn't have any credentials as a book coach, except that I had authored books, except that I now needed to author a book about how to write books. Right. And that was my credential, and that's what I tell people about the power of a book.
Mark Graban (13m 50s):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And as you were thinking about this business and you brand yourself, business book coach, like tell that did is was, you know, I mean you were writing business book. So was that kind of a natural fit or I'm, I'm curious like, you know, was it, did you worry it was a mistake to narrow the focus or a mistake not to?
Cathy Fyock (14m 13s):
Well, in fact, my husband really tried to talk me out of it. He said, why don't you just help help people start businesses, you know, start businesses as consultants. I said, you know, or as coaches or whatever, or speakers. And I said, you know, I don't think that's specific enough. I think that being niched is the way to go. So against his advice, I just thought this is, this just feels right. This feels like a, the right niche. It feels like the right area. It feels like the right use of my expertise. It's also where my passion is. I'm really, really, really passionate about the power of books.
Cathy Fyock (14m 54s):
I really believe that they are magical in what they can do for your career. And I've seen that now, not just once, but at least twice with this, this my initial career direction and now this huge pivot into book coaching. Yeah. And it's the power of a book.
Mark Graban (15m 14s):
Well, it's been, it's proof powerful for you. I can certainly speak to how that has been powerful. Going back to the first book I wrote 2008, so going back 15 years ago, that's certainly opened a lot of doors. And I maybe, you know, in, in the, in the second part of the conversation here, I, I think maybe there's three categories that we can talk about of like sort of, and, and this is something you do really well, is thinking about the business model around a book, the concept of a book and your business. Yes. Writing and, and then publishing. So maybe we can talk about that, that first part. And, you know, we talk about following a passion. I, that's been I think one of the drivers for, for me, when an idea finally hits a point where I'm, you know, I wanna write again, I figure I'll write again, but I don't know, and then, and then something hits and something builds and becomes a passion.
Mark Graban (16m 8s):
My Favorite Mistake, this podcast has been a passion. And, and, and the book is an extension of that. I'm, I'm sure the answer might be, it depends, but I'll ask the question anyway. Can, can it be a mistake to, I mean, where, where do we find the balance between following a passion of, of what you want to write about versus kind of trying to understand a market for a book or the business model around a book?
Cathy Fyock (16m 35s):
I think it's the intersection of those two things. I think your passion will take you where you have interest and where you have just a curiosity and a desire. And I think anytime you start a business or write a book, it's a big project, it's a big deal. And it will, it will take a lot of energy, resources, time. So you better be really excited about it and passionate about it. So I, I think that that, but you can't do it just, I mean, if I'm just ex super excited about something that no one in the rest of the world is interested in, then so what, so there has to be that intersection of finding the, the sweet spot of those two.
Cathy Fyock (17m 25s):
But oftentimes what I, what I do is talk with authors about the importance of, of seeing sort of where the market is going, sort of anticipating. And I think if you, if you've been in business for a little while, you, you have a sense of that, you have a sense of what is becoming hot and what is becoming trending, what, what are issues are trending, what is the excitement going forward? And then thinking about ways to align your passion with that direction
Mark Graban (18m 3s):
And the, that that business model around a book. you know, I'm thinking, you know, you, you talked about your husband's question of should you help people start businesses, you know, a a a a book is like a startup. It is in a lot of ways you're, you're creating something new. It's probably innovative. It's the, the the, I guess the, the dilemma of, you know, can, can you rely on, on focus groups or feedback or how much do you follow your gut? To your point, Cathy, have you, you, you think you have a sense of where things are headed, sometimes you have to get out in front of others.
Mark Graban (18m 45s):
That might be true at the book sometimes.
Cathy Fyock (18m 48s):
Absolutely. Well, I saw it with my first book. My first book was written back in 1989. It was published in 90 and it was on the aging of the workforce. And I was way ahead of my time. It was certainly an issue then. And employers were dealing with the issues of an aging workforce and older workers and so forth. But it was, it was, I was far ahead of the curve. But what has been interesting about that, even though I have been ahead of the curve there, writing the book about that topic has served me even all these years later. I, well, almost all of my work is around book coaching.
Cathy Fyock (19m 31s):
I did take on a project several years ago with someone who needed a generational expert on a topic. And I've been able to realize many dollars in revenue from that project that was from this book that I had established my thought leadership around, you know, all these years ago. So I, I think that's the, again, the power of a book, it doesn't mean that you're only a thought leader for a short period of time. If you've written a book, a significant book on, on a, on an important issue, you'll always own that, if that makes sense.
Cathy Fyock (20m 14s):
Yeah,
Mark Graban (20m 14s):
Well there's that, the, the credibility that comes from that. And one, one thing that I've discovered in the process of writing is if, if you feel like you know enough about a topic to write a book, the best way to learn, you end up learning so much more about that topic, hopefully as, as you're writing, right?
Cathy Fyock (20m 36s):
Yes. In fact, I'm, I'm working on some things right now on the transformational power of authorship. And actually it's interesting, it's, it's the intersection of AI and where AI comes into. Cuz you know, you can, you can have your book written by ai AI now. So what, what is, what does writing do for the author? What does writing something do for my readers, for my, what is me writing something due for my readers? And I do think that there is something that happens when you are collating the information, you're curating all of this knowledge, you're putting it all together, coupling it with your own experience, telling your stories, then it, it, it creates something that's completely different and you own your thought leadership like you've never done before.
Cathy Fyock (21m 38s):
So yeah, I think that's, that's kind of where I am right now. That's a kind of an, an a trending issue that is really, it's, it's intriguing the nature of this question.
Mark Graban (21m 52s):
Yeah, yeah, it is. You you mentioned ai, I mean, I've played around with open G P t, you can tell it's a technology person, not a marketer who, with that, with that name. But, you know, kind of asking it to, to outline a blog post or even to write a blog post. And there's that, you know, kind of whenever I've used any of that content, I've been pretty transparent in terms of like, Hey, I've been playing with this AI tool and with some back and forth, here's what we ended up with in trying to be transparent about that. What, what, what, you know, I guess I mean, ethical dilemma around how much you disclose use of that, or is it just a different form of a ghost writer?
Mark Graban (22m 41s):
And a question around if somebody uses a ghost writer, do they need to disclose that? I mean, what, what, what are your thoughts on, on navigating either that, whether it's, you know, human assistance that might go as far as quote unquote ghost writing or, or ai?
Cathy Fyock (22m 57s):
Well, it's interesting when it comes to ghost writing, I do not do ghost writing. I do not encourage my authors, in fact, I really discourage them because they're losing out on, like I say, this transformational power of authorship. There's something about collating, curating, diving through the information, coupling it with your own experiences and coming up with these ideas that is indeed transformational. So you're missing that if you're using a ghost writer, you're missing that if you're relying exclusively on ai. So I, I, I believe that if we're really gonna be true to our craft as thought leaders, then we, we need to use it.
Cathy Fyock (23m 50s):
I think AI can be a powerful tool when used to just explore, did I get everything that I wanted to in that, in that discussion of those topics, did I cover everything? In fact, I wrote an article last night, I went to, to ai to chat G P t, and I put in my question about how authors can use ai and, and it came up with a little article, a little post. And so I took it and edited it and add my own stories, add my own personality. And what I'm planning to do is some kind of learning event, maybe where I take authors through that experience of coming up with the, the raw data editing, adding your own layer of experience, changing the things you don't agree with or that you don't like, or that you don't wanna focus on and coming up.
Cathy Fyock (24m 43s):
And I think that's, that's probably the ethical way to deal with the ai.
Mark Graban (24m 47s):
Yeah, I mean, I'd be curious if, if somebody ever lists chat g p t as a co-author just to say, alright, look, I'm gonna disclose it. But I mean, I think there's one other interesting use, I don't know if you've tried this, where, and there's limits to how much text you can copy paste, but you can take text, paste it in and say, you know, ask it, summarize this for me. That might be a way of kind of checking for, I mean, it's an AI reader and I mean, I, I would still, I'm still asking human readers to read and give feedback and, you know, but as a way of checking, like, I think this main point, I hope is clear, but it's, it's always in the eye of the reader or the brain Absolutely.
Mark Graban (25m 29s):
Of the computer reader.
Cathy Fyock (25m 31s):
Yeah.
Mark Graban (25m 31s):
It'll be interesting to hear more from me over time, Cathy is you're
Cathy Fyock (25m 35s):
Exploring it'll, it'll
Mark Graban (25m 36s):
And, and helping others. So I wanna talk more about, you know, the writing process. And again, like I mentioned upfront, you know, you've, you've been a helpful coach for, for me, I I it's taken me longer than six weeks to write my books. And that's not your fault. I'm not, I'm not.
Cathy Fyock (25m 54s):
No. I, the world today is so crazy and we're all so crazy busy that nobody really writes their book in six weeks anymore. Yeah. But, but it can happen if you're truly focused and deliberate and intentional. Yeah.
Mark Graban (26m 10s):
And you know, and part of my challenge has been juggling book time with other responsibilities and the schedule. Absolutely. you know, one, one way you've helped me and, you know, I try turn this into a question. I mean, talk about how you've helped others like you, you've been helpful to me in terms of not just recommending that I block time, but that I block time with a specific purpose and to, to try to bite off a smaller bite of this big task called write the book and to break it down into smaller tasks. So I, you know, I think
Cathy Fyock (26m 44s):
That's helpful. Yeah. It really doesn't help to put right book on your calendar or, or on your to-do list or anything else. It's just too big. It's too unwieldy. And we need to have specific tasks and specific timeframes. So the more specific we can get on those, the better we will be. Yeah.
Mark Graban (27m 4s):
And then, I mean, I think there's also the trap of, you know, thinking about the book as opposed to putting fingers on keyboard. How, how, how do you help coach people?
Cathy Fyock (27m 15s):
It's through, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I've got it all right here. It's right here. But yeah, it, it, it takes a lot to get it from your head to the page. And the hard work is to sit down and actually crank it out. For most of my authors too, I, I found that they overthink the book. They're, they're trying too hard to write perfect sentences, perfectly crafted, post perfect, perfect gems of writing. And it just doesn't happen that way. You need to, to throw up on the page to get it all out and then go back through it and edit it. And that's a completely separate function from the writing of the book.
Mark Graban (27m 57s):
And so there's, there's the writing and, you know, maybe let me ask this as a question. I mean, like, I found it can be a very iterative process. You outline what you think the book is going to be, and then you're writing and then you realize, well, I mean, you can always rearrange and I mean, do, do you, do you see anyone fall into a trap of being like a little too stubbornly stuck to, well, this, this was my plan, I need to execute it. Like, how, how do you help someone navigate through that challenge of, right, do, do I change or do I keep moving forward? It's kinda like, back to your jobs question.
Cathy Fyock (28m 28s):
Yeah. It, it's really, it's really interesting. Usually if someone's brain is saying, this is not working, they will get stuck. And that's usually a reason for being stuck, is that it's just sort of not working, it's not flowing, it's not producing results. So that's when I usually know when, when someone is stuck and they say, oh, we need to skip a meeting. No, I said, that's when we need to meet most of all. And to talk through what's really going on. Have you not defined your thesis correctly? Have you not defined your targeted reader? Is the structure for discussion discussing your topic, is it not laid out properly?
Cathy Fyock (29m 16s):
So let's figure out what, what's getting in the way of you moving forward. Because if you had a clear vision and if it was all working, you would have it done.
Mark Graban (29m 26s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I've certainly went through cycles of moving forward, being stuck, going back, trying again. You've helped me navigate some of that. And yeah, what you said is true. Like, you, you hit a certain point, really. Okay, well I think this is it, I'm gonna plow forward. And then you hit some other maybe smaller roadblock, but you again, like you can go back and, and edit and, and refine the writing. So I, I, you know, I wanna talk also a little bit before we wrap up, thinking about the publishing side and, and the, and the decisions that an author has to make. I mean, you know, there's, there's, there's the manuscript, there's the book description, the old cliche of don't judge a book by its cover.
Mark Graban (30m 11s):
There are these really important decisions around a title and, and, and cover design. And how, how do you help people navigate the question of like, what's, what's the right title or what's a title that's good enough? What's the right color design? Cause you, you could agonize over that forever. What
Cathy Fyock (30m 30s):
Happened? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So there's two parts to a a, a book title. There's the main title and there's the subtitle. And what I've found to be most helpful is that one of those pieces needs to be compelling, needs to be intriguing, needs to be sexy, if you will. The other part needs to be definitive. It needs to tell the reader what they're getting. Now you can, you can rearrange those, it doesn't matter which is, which. Sometimes authors have a really catchy name for their title, but it doesn't really tell the whole story. But the subtitle does.
Cathy Fyock (31m 10s):
Sometimes the title tells what it is, but the subtitle is sort of what gets you intrigued about reading that. So it has to have both pieces. I also think it has to appeal to your reader. It, it can't be just something that you like and something that is appealing to you. So using your own judgment isn't always the best way. So many of my authors in working with a public, I'm not a publisher, but in working with a publisher, will do it a cover contest.
Cathy Fyock (31m 52s):
And it's about what readers and potential readers think about the cover. I'll give you an example of that. One of my authors or a couple wrote a book and they had this gorgeous picture taken of the two of them. And Of course I know them and love them and they are dear people, and the picture of the two of them was just great. And so I thought that is the picture for the cover of the book, but people who didn't know them say, you know, I don't get it. I don't, I don't know their story, I don't know what this is about. Yes, they look like lovely people, but would I pick up this book? Probably not.
Cathy Fyock (32m 33s):
So they went with a cover that was very, very different from the two of them. Now on the back cover, there is a picture of the two of them, but the front cover is something a little more curious and invites more introspection about what their book is really all about. So I, I love the notion of having it reader tested.
Mark Graban (32m 55s):
Yeah, yeah. I mean there's, yeah, there's different ways of getting feedback. Surveys, people love voting on LinkedIn polls if you post photos of, you know, some different options and that actually every time people vote or comment, that helps a post go viral, which is giving good promotion to, to the book.
Cathy Fyock (33m 17s):
Absolutely. Involving your readers early on in the process, getting them invested and connected.
Mark Graban (33m 25s):
Yeah. But you know, back to your advice around title and subtitle. I mean, just to to share again, sorry to bring it back to my book again. Like, I think, oh, not sure. I think the Mistakes that make us is sort of an intriguing, interesting yes phrase, and I've gotten, you know, pretty good positive feedback on that. But right now, like the working subtitle is more of that definitive building a workplace culture of learning and innovation. Like that's fair. I think fairly straightforward as opposed to another phrase. There's another phrase we kicked around that's a fun phrase. Something like how getting things wrong can make it right. But then that would be like intriguing, intriguing as a title and a subtitle maybe wouldn't work together,
Cathy Fyock (34m 11s):
But you can certainly use that copy as you're promoting the book and talking about the book. So remember that you can still keep those words and phrases and use them for many other purposes.
Mark Graban (34m 25s):
And I've got a file where phrases like that or tucked aside and, and, and, and pulled out of the book. So, you know, the, the other thing when then when it comes to publishing is the thinging about the business model. And part of that is setting the price of the book. Now, when I've gone through traditional publishers, my perception has been that they want to set the price too high because they're only making money off the book. Whereas for me, I can accept a lower margin on the book, assuming that means more copies get out there and that's more exposure than to things like speaking, consulting, training, you know, other, other, other entries.
Mark Graban (35m 8s):
So at least for me that that's a very, that's one of the many compelling reasons to do quote unquote self-publishing. But yes, lemme turn it back to you to that question around, you know, book pricing and, and trying to figure out like what, what the sweet spot might be.
Cathy Fyock (35m 24s):
Well, I think my advice typically is don't, don't overthink this. If it's a traditional book, people expect to pay about 20 bucks for that book. So why not make it easy on your customer, especially if you're speaking in an event, you wanna sell books, let's make it easy for folks to give you a $20 bill and walk away with their book. So those are some considerations as well. So thinking about how to make it, how to make it easy for folks as they're buying books, but also how you might make it easy to discount books by having your book self-published, knowing that your cost per book is fairly low.
Cathy Fyock (36m 10s):
You can offer discounts to organizations who wanna bring you in to speak and they wanna get a book for everybody in the crowd. And that's several hundred books you can afford then to discount it and everybody wins.
Mark Graban (36m 25s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that boy, the, the, the price per book a quote-unquote self-publisher is, you know, far lower, you know, you're getting them at cost, which, you know, for this upcoming book Yeah, I, I mean people can go do calculators online to see how much it costs. They probably, you know, three and a half, $4,
Cathy Fyock (36m 44s):
Right.
Mark Graban (36m 45s):
Copy. Where if I went through a traditional publisher in the past and they wanted to charge $30 and they would give me a 40% discount that that's 20 wait 0.6 times 30, gosh, I'm better at math than this… 18.
Cathy Fyock (37m 1s):
Don't ask me, remember, I, I was the one who opted outta finance.
Mark Graban (37m 5s):
So my mistake, and I'm not gonna edit that out. 18, you know, $18 for an author copy versus four, or like you said, for bulk sales, that that's a huge difference right there.
Cathy Fyock (37m 17s):
Yes.
Mark Graban (37m 18s):
Yeah. So maybe final question, Cathy, again, we we're talking with Cathy Fyock, the business book coach. There's that question, and you know, I think people still reach out to me and they frame the question in terms of like, I'm trying to choose a publisher, or I'm trying to get selected by a publisher, and I'm like, well, wait a minute. Are you considering yourself in that list of, of possibilities? I think the, I it's a misnomer to say self publishing because I, I work with many different talented business partners to help bring a book to, to, to mark. Yes. But, but let, let me ask it as, you know, kind of a, a very broad question of, of your thoughts on somebody trying to navigate maybe the pros and cons of do I need a publisher?
Mark Graban (38m 1s):
Should I go with a publisher or can I work with people to do it, quote unquote myself?
Cathy Fyock (38m 7s):
Yes, I'm a big believer in, in hybrid publishing or self-publishing, whatever you wanna call it, but having a fee for service model where you pay and then the publisher is sort of out of it. I mean, they, they don't get any residuals, they don't get any royalties, they don't get any of that. And for most speakers, consultants, coaches, people who are using their book to leverage their expertise in the marketplace, it doesn't make sense for many authors to go traditional publishing because they're, your hands are tied on so many levels, the cost of the book, your creative input you have, say when it's a hybrid publisher or your own publishing, you have all creative control, total creative control.
Cathy Fyock (39m 0s):
And sometimes those things can be huge. Also, residual prod products or workbooks, other materials that come from it. You may have a lot of different ideas about how you can leverage your intellectual property and it doesn't make sense to have that all tied up, copyright tied up with a publisher.
Mark Graban (39m 25s):
Yeah, yeah. I mean it seemed, and and what do you mean by hybrid publishing for people who don't know that that term?
Cathy Fyock (39m 31s):
Okay, so I always say that publishing a book, well, saying that you're self-publishing is sort of like saying I'm building my own home. You have lots of different varieties. You can actually, you know, go out and buy the lumber and develop the plans and hammer the nails and you can do all that, or you can do some of that. You can hire a subcontractor or have some of that done. Or you can hire a contractor who will then have subcontractors and that's still building your own house. So that's very similar to the options that are available to you as an author to have your book published.
Cathy Fyock (40m 13s):
You can do it all yourself. I don't recommend it for busy professionals when you have to learn all the rules of the road and you don't wanna look like you're self-published or you're homemade. It doesn't, it doesn't look right. So you wanna be sure that you're having it done well. So you can hire a, a lot of subcontractors or you can hire, in this case a hybrid publisher who can get all of that done for you. And I like that for my busy professionals because they can turn it over to one person, they have one point of contact and it's, it's really a, a lovely, clean and productive way for them to move their book forward.
Mark Graban (40m 54s):
Okay. So that's helpful. Yeah. The difference between, you know, and I've, I've served as my own general contractor
Cathy Fyock (41m 0s):
Yes.
Mark Graban (41m 2s):
Wonder if I should be or if that's a mistake. But, but I think your point is a good one, Cathy, of making sure, cuz when I've worked with people to do, let's say interior design of the book, like you said, it's fee for service. I, I am paying them to do certain work and certain updates, and that's mine. And whether they help me or not, I have the direct connection to Amazon, which is where most books are sold payments flow directly to me as opposed to going through a third party who's taking a cut of each book.
Cathy Fyock (41m 34s):
Well, and then the, the hybrid publisher that I like to work with does not take a cut, which I think is really the, the right way to work. And for authors who want to establish their thought leadership and speak and train and consultant coach, it really makes more sense to have that publisher out of the way and not taking any monies from the author. Yeah.
Mark Graban (42m 2s):
And then there's, you know, one other tip that I had gotten, even going back to 2008 going through a publisher, that tip was make sure the copyright is in your name, not the publisher's name, because the warning I was given was if the publisher were to go out of business, then you could take the book and get it printed yourself or find another publisher. And, you know, I found the publisher initially proposed copyright in their name. I didn't have to push back very hard, but sometimes you have to know what to ask if, if you're going that route.
Cathy Fyock (42m 35s):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Mark Graban (42m 38s):
Yeah. Well, Cathy, thank you for, for sharing, you know, not, not just your story and, and your reflections from your career path, but you know, a lot of really good tips here about kind of con conceptualizing and writing and, and, and publishing a book. And I would certainly encourage people to check out Cathy's website Cathy Fyock dot com and there'll be a link there in the show notes. And I've gotta ask before we wrap up here, I had to cough and I think I misclick and actually didn't mute. Did you hear me cough?
Cathy Fyock (43m 8s):
No, a couple minutes
Mark Graban (43m 9s):
Ago. Okay. I, cause I, I, I sort of had that moment of like, oh gosh, I, I, I, it's my, my might have been my mistake. I'll go and double check and edit that out and not be coughing in people's ears, but my podcasting Mistakes or, or near Mistakes. But again, you know, Cathy Fyock, she's been a really, really great coach and advisor for me through these different projects. And you know, Cathy, thank you again for working with me and thank you for being here on the podcast.
Cathy Fyock (43m 39s):
Well, thank you, Mark.
Mark Graban (43m 40s):
Well thanks again to Cathy for being My coach. Thanks to her for being a guest today. To learn More about Cathy, Everything she does her books and more, look in the show notes or go to markgraban.com/Mistake216. As always, I want to thank you for listening. I hope this podcast inspires you to reflect on your own Mistakes, how you can learn from them or turn them into a positive. I've had listeners tell me they started being more open and honest about Mistakes in their work, and they're trying to create a workplace culture where it's safe to speak up about problems because that leads to more improvement and better business results. if you have feedback or a story to share, you can email me MyFavoriteMistakePodcast@gmail com.
Mark Graban (44m 21s):
And again, our website is MyFavoriteMistakePodcast com.