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My guest for Episode #240 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is George A. Milton, America’s Failure Coach.
George is the CEO of Failure Is Not The Problem, LLC, a consulting company that specializes in leadership development and training, life coaching, and motivational speaking. He is a United States Army Retired Colonel with over 30 years of experience as an internationally known Coach, and Speaker.
George failed kindergarten, failed the first grade, barely graduated from high school dropped out/failed out of six universities. George had some academic failures early in life, yet, he went on to earn multiple degrees, and was inducted into the U.S. Army Officer Candidate School Hall of Fame.
His podcast is “Failure is Not the Problem,” and he’s the author of the books Failure Is Not The Problem: It's the Beginning Of Your Success and Failure Is Not the Problem: It's Your Leadership.
I was also a guest on George's podcast:
In the military, failure is seen as the starting point for learning rather than a devastating setback. This mindset, which was ingrained in Milton during his three decades of military service, emphasizes resilience and adaptability forged through failure. By providing supportive mentorship rather than punitive consequences, he showcases how the military fosters a culture of learning from mistakes.
We discuss that, his favorite mistake story, and more in today's episode.
Questions and Topics:
- How did you learn – was it in the Army – about responding to failure differently?
- “It’s not the failure… it’s the response” — ARMY mentor
- Was that widespread thinking? YES
- Equation: Failure + Right Response = Success
- How is punishment counterproductive?
- Punitive approach didn’t work as well in units where that was the culture
- Failure is not the issue, the issue is how you respond?
- How does an organization make it “OK to fail”?
- Team of Teams — Gen. McChrystal
- In your experience… what was the Army’s views on learning from failure?
- Gen. Welton Chase episode
- How do we teach leaders how to “fail graciously”?
- How can failing be “fun”? Does that help us learn?
- The act of failing does not mean you are a failure
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- Video version of the episode
- How to subscribe
- Quotes
- Full transcript
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![“[Punishment] never works. So if you want people to thrive and survive and do the kind of things make it OK to fail, they're not penalized.” George A. Milton](https://www.markgraban.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/George-A.-Milton-My-Favorite-Mistake-Quotes-5-1.jpg)
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Episode Article
Embracing Failure: A Journey to Success with George A. Milton
In the landscape of leadership and personal development, the notion of equating failure with progress might seem paradoxical. Yet George A. Milton, known as America's failure coach, has pioneered a philosophy that failure is not only a natural aspect of the journey to success but a vital resource. With a distinguished military background and a career dedicated to coaching, speaking, and writing, Milton offers unparalleled insights into the transformative power of failure.
The Military Mindset: Learning from Failure
Resilience in Leadership
In the U.S. Army, failure is treated not as an end but as a beginning. The esteemed armed forces, to which George Milton dedicated over 30 years, adopts an approach that resilience and adaptability are born from the experiences of failure. Through rigorous training and leadership programs, military personnel are culturally conditioned to view failure as a crucial element of learning and growth. This mindset is forged not through reprimand but through support and mentorship—a philosophy mirrored in Milton's own coaching practices.
Valuing The Power of Mistakes
For military leaders like Milton, mistakes are uncovered in retrospective analyses called ‘After Action Reviews,’ an environment devoid of punitive measures. These reviews are centered on constructive feedback and collective improvement. Converting errors into educational moments not only enhances strategic thinking but fosters a culture where stifling fear of failure dissipates, liberating creativity and innovation. As Milton's experiences denote, creating a safe space for failure often results in boosted morale and profound successes in the most high-stakes situations.
From Personal Setbacks to Professional Triumphs
Transcending Academic Struggles
George Milton's own narrative is a testament to the strength derived from overcoming adversity. Despite encountering multiple academic setbacks early in his life, Milton was undeterred. After failing and dropping out of several colleges, his pivot into the military became the inflection point of his career. It's a narrative that resonates with many who have met obstacles on their educational paths. From struggling student to Army Colonel and entrant into the U.S. Army Officer Candidate School Hall of Fame, Milton exemplifies the very resilience and perseverance he inspires in others.
The Cultivation of Grit
Milton's achievements extend well beyond his military accolades. His voracious pursuit of knowledge led to acquiring multiple degrees, further debunking the myth that failure is indicative of inadequacy. He is a staunch advocate for continuous learning, rationalizing that if one has yet to learn something, the opportunity to do so still exists. It's a framework that positions failure not as a deficiency but as an untapped potential.
Integrating The Philosophy of Failure into Leadership
Embracing and Teaching Failure
Leadership, according to Milton, entails steering teams through tumultuous times with grace. This includes reframing failure as an avenue of collective improvement rather than grounds for retribution. A leader's response to failure can set the tone for an entire organization, fostering an environment where mistakes become stepping stones rather than stumbling blocks. His formula, F + RR = S (Failure plus Right Response equals Success), encapsulates this ideology succinctly.
The Role of Mindset and Mentoring in Success
A key component in mitigating the negative effects of failure is maintaining the correct mindset and fostering mentoring relationships. Milton emphasizes this, drawing upon the guidance he received from sergeants during his formative years in the military; guidance that fundamentally altered his perception of failure. By internalizing that failures are catalysts for growth rather than symbols of incompetence, leaders can not only improve their own resilience but also encourage the same in those they mentor.
The Future of Failure in Organizational Frameworks
As Milton's counsel reverberates through various industries, the seedling notion that failure is an asset grows firmer roots. Translating military principles to civilian contexts isn't straightforward. Yet, through the universal truths shared by mentors like Milton, more organizations are recognizing that the punitive responses to failure stifle advancement, whereas embracing it with a balanced perspective propels it. As businesses and leaders venture into further incorporating these teachings, the landscape for innovation and success becomes progressively promising.
George A. Milton's journey illuminates the counterintuitive notion that failure, much like success, is crafted from determination, learning, and the courage to confront challenges. Whether through his podcast discussions or the pages of his books, his insights offer compelling evidence that leadership and success are driven not by the absence of failure but by a profound understanding and utilization of it.
Automated Transcript (May Contain Mistakes)
Mark Graban:
I'm really excited that our guest today is George A. Milton, America's Failure Coach. So with that label, you know he's in the right place here to talk about mistakes and failures. George is CEO of his consulting company called Failure is Not The Problem. LLC. His company specializes in leadership development and training, life coaching and motivational speaking. George is a retired US. Army Colonel with over 30 years of experience as an internationally known coach and speaker. So before I tell you a little bit more about George, welcome to the podcast and also, thank you for your service.
Mark Graban:
We're recording this on Veterans Day, at least the Friday recognition. So, again, thank you also for being here.
George A. Milton:
Mike, thank you so much for the opportunity and it is absolutely apropos, man. And I just want to say what an honor it is to be here with you today. Thank you for having me on the show and also for all those who have veterans who have served and all of those who are currently serving across the spectrum in terms of our military services. Thanks goes out to those folks who are wearing the uniform and the family members and all of those folks who are out there keeping our nation safe. So, Mark, thank you so much for having us on today.
Mark Graban:
Yes, thank you, George. And thank you for extending the thanks to all veterans out there on this day and we want to remember them every day, but tell you a little bit more about again, our guest, George A. Milton. This is from his bio. I'm going to let him share, I think, some of the detail as we talk here.
Mark Graban:
But I think this is important, as George phrases it, that he had some academic failures early in life but yet went on to earn multiple degrees and he was inducted into the US. Army Officer Candidate School Hall of Fame. So I think we can talk about some of the resiliency and persistence and bounce back there. George is the host of a podcast that I was really happy to discover a couple of months ago. It's called?
Mark Graban:
Failure is not the problem. Just about an hour ago, George was kind enough to have me as a guest on his podcast and we're going to continue the conversation here today. So I encourage you to check out. Failure is not the problem. And George is the author of books titled Failure is not the Problem.
Mark Graban:
They have two different subtitles, the two books in this series. It's the beginning of your success. And then the second failure is not the problem.
George A. Milton:
Book.
Mark Graban:
It's your leadership. So, George, I'm really excited that we have so much to talk about here today. I'm glad we've gotten connected, but we always start off with a key question here. Looking back at your career and your work, what would you say is your favorite mistake?
George A. Milton:
Well, I'll tell you what, I got a whole bunch of them. Man that's for sure. But if I had to synthesize this and say any particular one, it would definitely have to be not understanding the importance role that failure actually plays in not only my life, but the lives of those that I've been responsible for and responsible to throughout my entire life. Cow Lee there's just so much that actually went on from the standpoint of most folks can't pinpoint necessarily the first time of failing, but I certainly can. And that was in kindergarten.
George A. Milton:
That's where it all started for me. And I didn't understand the importance. All I understood was the negative connotations that that experience actually had from how I was actually taught early on in life. So failed in kindergarten, failed in elementary school, the first grade, almost every grade thereafter, and dropped out of six colleges and universities. You'd mentioned something about multiple degrees, but long before I ever had a degree, I dropped a failed out of six colleges or universities, and that's how I actually ended up in the army.
George A. Milton:
But I tell you, understanding how powerful that one word is in terms of positively understanding, if you change your mindset to look at failure from the standpoint of the greatest resource on the planet, mark man, there are tons of things that you like to accomplish. That would have been my favorite mistake, not understanding the resoning power that failure played.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, I think there's a lot we can dig into, if I may, about how you've come to see the importance of failure. I have to ask, when it came to colleges, what do you attribute the failures to of failing out of different colleges? There's different reasons why that could happen.
George A. Milton:
Yeah, two issues. One was that I just didn't have a good foundation educationally starting out. Education wasn't that big of a deal. Growing up in east rural Texas, town a little small town community there, great folks, but work ethic was incredibly important. So my folks both are unwt teams, no formal education and that sort of thing.
George A. Milton:
So school wasn't that big of a deal. So getting a job, I thought I'd be a professional football player. So unfortunately, that didn't work out as well as I thought. Got to college on a football scholarship. Man I jumped ahead a little bit, but everybody's wanted to be a professional football player.
George A. Milton:
But going back to failure in kindergarten, I mean, that was a key indicator right there in the first grade and almost every grade thereafter. Mark almost not even graduated from high school. I actually had to take a correspondence course. Couldn't even spell correspondence, but I had to take a correspondence course, actually graduate from high school. Now, a couple of problems with this situation is that the correspondence course was from Stephen F.
George A. Milton:
Austin State University in Nakadocious, Texas. I hadn't even read a book. You know, I didn't read my first book until I was in the 9th grade. The only reason I read that book is the teacher calls me over and she said, look, have you reading assignment? I said no.
George A. Milton:
I had not. And she brings me over and she said, look, here, I'm going to show you a couple of words. She opened the page of that book and she pointed to two words, and the two words were this. George Milton. I'm like what?
George A. Milton:
I'm in a book. What is this about? And the title of the book was Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck. Classic.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, right.
George A. Milton:
That was the first book I ever read. So not having a good foundational education, I got to college and failed and ended up in the military. So that was one issue. The other issue is the stress that the failure brought on. Right.
George A. Milton:
It was just one of these situations where I worried tons and tons and tons. Just as an example is anytime I would go in to take an exam, I focused more on whether or not I was going to pass or fail. Right. I knew the information, but because of the overwhelming oppressiveness in terms of that one word and worrying about whether or not I was going to passage, I couldn't think. So here's how I got beyond that, is I literally had this.
George A. Milton:
Athletes are very superstitious people, even though they call themselves Christians. I don't know how that matches up, but that's kind of who we are, man. And I remember just this mantra and I don't know how, but I just thought that I got to figure something out because I cannot focus, I cannot think. And I said this, I used to say this before I would take an exam. I know what I know and I don't know no more.
George A. Milton:
I know what I know and I don't know no more. And when I said that, I would go in, I would sit down and I freed myself from worrying about failure. Mark I know that sounds kind of crazy, right. But when I freed myself to be able to fail, I started passing the exams. Wow.
George A. Milton:
Because I realized that I can study all of this information, and if the information that I studied matched up with the information that the professors put on the exam, then I'm going to be okay. So I taught myself not to even worry about that. So I taught myself, don't worry about the failure. If I failed, then therefore I've learned how to study even more. So those two things, not having a good foundation educationally early on in life and throughout my life, and then just freeing myself to be able to accept failure and embrace it and learn from it.
Mark Graban:
And when you ended up in the army, which seemed to then help create a lot of great opportunities for you, I know you had some key mentors in the army. Tell us about what you started learning about failure and responding to failure in the context of the army.
George A. Milton:
Excellent. Excellent. I like the way you bring that up because this is one of my favorite stories. Look, so I come into the army not knowing anything about it. Didn't come from a military family.
George A. Milton:
In fact, my mother says, look, please do not join the army. They're going to get you killed. They're going to get my baby killed. No, you can't join the army, right? I mean, I ran away from the know recruiters when I was in high school like a scalded cat, dude.
George A. Milton:
Just didn't want anything to do with it. But I ended up in the army because of all that failure that I mentioned a moment ago. And when I got into the military, there was a major significant event that happened. Now. I grew up east.
George A. Milton:
Rural Texas. Little place called Jacksonville, Texas. And I hunted, I fished almost every single day on all the weekends so I could fire a weapon system. Well, I get to basic training, and guess what? You have to fire a weapon.
George A. Milton:
So I go to the weapons qualification range in the army. We call it we Bolog. Boloing means you fail. So not only did I fail the range once, I failed it twice. So I go back to the barracks that night and I'm moping around, got my lip in the dirt, and my platoon sergeant, sergeant First Class George Gaither, comes over and he says, look, Private, what's your problem?
George A. Milton:
You know, I'm explaining to him about all this failure, and he said, look, you've got to get your head out your full point of contact, boy, because that's not how that works around here when it comes to failing, son. And it wasn't one of these, oh, my dear son, it was one of these, look, here is how this is going to work. And he says that it's not the failure that you need to be focusing on, right? It's the response. He says, So failure is not the problem.
George A. Milton:
It's how you respond to your failures or your challenges that are out there. And when he said that, Mark, it's like the light came on, right? And it revolutionized my thought processes. And every single time from that day then to this day forward, anytime I failed, I always remember this is 40 years ago. I remember what George Gaither said to me on that day, and it really propelled me to the trajectory that I am now and all the success that I have.
George A. Milton:
Because anytime I would go out and I would have a failure, I would immediately say, okay, what am I going to learn from this? Okay, do I need to shift gears or change what I'm doing right now? Or what did I do wrong or what did I not do right? And how do I get better? Long before then, earlier in my life, I would have become very depressed.
George A. Milton:
I wouldn't have been able to function right. I just worried about all kinds of things that had nothing to do with anything. So that one experience with that soldier taught me everything I needed to know about that single word.
Mark Graban:
Wow. And I'm going to repeat that because I've heard you say it in your podcast and our discussions. Failure is not the issue. The issue is how you respond. And I think the same could be said about mistakes.
Mark Graban:
We all make mistakes. Mistakes can lead to failure, or there could be failure caused by other factors. The issue is how you that's that's powerful. And I mean, would you say that mentor, that coaching you received, was that as much as you could generalize kind of a common mindset within the US Army?
George A. Milton:
Absolutely. And in fact, because of that experience, I came up with this formula, right? And it is simply this F plus RR equals S, that's failure plus right response equals success. I mean, it's really that simple, right? When you have a failure or a mistake, it's not really about the mistake of the failure.
George A. Milton:
It's how you respond to that. And therefore, if you can move beyond that and get from where you are to where it's supposed to be, that is absolutely success. And what I love about the foundational way in which the military does things, the military not only not punishes us for failing, it also sets us up sometimes to where we can't fail, where we can't succeed no matter what. They put us in positions where they want to see how we're going to respond to failure. And that's throughout the military in general, and specifically when it comes to the army, the army wants to know oftentimes that how is a soldier going to perform when they find themselves under pressure?
George A. Milton:
That is incredibly important, especially for those who go on to become leaders. And the more leadership you have, the more people you have underneath you, the more responsibility you get. It's important to understand how you're going to learn, because a couple of things is going to happen. One is that you're going to learn how you deal with pressure and how you deal with stress and how you deal with shortcomings or mistakes and failure. The second piece of that is going to actually show your leadership, how you respond.
George A. Milton:
So the last unit I commanded, that unit actually had a commander, but my boss, the two Star at the time, wasn't comfortable with the soldiers leadership style because they're going to be in heavy combat, which had actually took place. And he was looking for someone to go in command. And I said, look here, sir, I'll take it, man. And he was like, what, you're going to go off staff? Absolutely, because I was already well versed.
George A. Milton:
That was like my third time being in actual combat and that sort of thing. Mark so the military really focused on making sure that they knew what our strengths and weaknesses were because the decisions that we often make, whether it's a mistake or failure, sometimes that cost people their lives. And we really try to figure out how to make sure that and you can't always do this 100%, but you can certainly tell when you're under pressure. And the way in which the military coaches, mentors and trains given certain situations, you can pretty much tell whether or not that person is a good fit to be in a command position or leadership position. So, yes, they do throughout the system.
Mark Graban:
So what I hear you saying, George, is they'll use training and developmental opportunities, if you will, safe places to fail as a way to prepare somebody to not fail in combat.
George A. Milton:
Yeah, look, the military makes it okay to fail, right? They don't make it okay to revel in failure, but they do make it okay to fail. They make it safe to fail. There are training development kinds of programs that we have in place and there are organizations that if they could actually get up to speed on this. And here's what I love about that sort of leadership style.
George A. Milton:
It allows for us to be creative. It allows for us to take risk without being brutally punished because people are not perfect. People are going to naturally make mistakes. But I can tell you personally, and most of those that I've ever served with is that when folks make decisions, Mark, they make them with the right intentions. Very seldom do they intentionally go out to try to not make the right decision.
George A. Milton:
So they make the right decisions based upon the information, based upon the experiences, based upon the missions that we actually had. So the military, they tried to instill those sorts of principles within our framework and our leadership mindset.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, I've had guests talk about this and I've tried to summarize this in my book. A mistake is discovered after the fact. As you're saying, George, at the time we think we're making the right decision. Now it could be based on an assumption, and we learn minutes, hours, years later, that assumption was incorrect. And then we say, oh, that was a mistake.
Mark Graban:
And that's where I think the idea of punishing a bad decision, punishing human error, just ends up being so counterproductive as you use this phrase, brutal punishment. How does that help? So let me try to phrase this as a question. I'm making a mistake of not asking it as a question. Well, let me ask it this way.
Mark Graban:
In your experience, I'm really making mistakes. How can that punishment be counterproductive? Because I've heard leaders and I'm sure you've heard leaders say, like, well, we have to punish mistakes. Otherwise it's just giving permission to make more mistakes.
George A. Milton:
How would you respond to, yeah, that never works, sir. I mean, look, you're already setting them up for quote, unquote, failure because, look, when you make it okay and safe to fail, then people as I said a moment ago, they just think outside the box. They know exactly they know that if their leadership is going to give them the freedom to be human, to give them the freedom to be able to lead in the way in which they've been coached, a lot of people talk about this impostor syndrome. For me, that's something that I just don't understand right now. I understand it intellectually, but not practically.
George A. Milton:
Because even though I could never, ever be perfect in any setting, the military trains us, those leaders, to command our units in such a way that even though we may not know every single thing that's going on in that unit, I am well prepared to go and take over any unit. Because that's kind of how the structure is. And I've seen it to where folks have gotten people injured because they were fearful of making the wrong decision based upon the oppressive leadership that we actually had given that structure, right? So if you want people to thrive and survive and do the kind of things make it okay to fail, they're not penalized. And you know what's really ironic about it is that most of those folks who are given the freedom to fail very seldom fail.
George A. Milton:
That's the beauty of it all, especially in our line of work. Because when we're allowed to execute the missions in the way in which we I mean, strategy is so important to us, right? So we will pull together what we call big brain thinkers and we come up with a strategy. And failure is one of those things that we know that it's possible, but we don't focus on that. We just don't.
George A. Milton:
And when we do, then we go back and we have something called an AAR, an After Action review. And in that After Action review, what we do is we realize, we talk about, well, what could we have done better? And even doing those After Action reviews, they're not the type of settings whereby we're punished or we are talked down to or called names. It's in those settings where we really learn how to move, okay, so we know what we did well. How can we make this better?
George A. Milton:
So in that sort of setting, in that sort of mindset, we very seldom do we go into a situation where we're worried about all the After Action review. That was very seldom the case. Now, I say very seldom because there were those folks who utilized that as punitive. And in those organizations, they just didn't thrive. The soldiers didn't do very well.
George A. Milton:
And I can tell you a lot of problems in those units also. So I always led in such a way in which I was taught, and that was to get 110%, do the best you can, make the best decision you have, given the resources you got, and always be very gracious when it comes to people failing because they didn't do that intentionally most of the time.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, exactly. It's just so fascinating to hear that comparison as you're describing it. I think some of it bears repeating because I think it sounds counterintuitive to people that I'm going to paraphrase it back to you, and I want to hear it from you again. Given the freedom to fail, people were less likely to fail.
George A. Milton:
Yes, absolutely. Because now, mind blowing, it does well, because now we become more creative, right? We become in situations where we're willing to take a risk, and it's not a risk from the standpoint of jeopardizing somebody's lives. But if I have this oppressive state of mind where I think, well, you know what? If I don't get this right, then I'm going to be punished for it.
George A. Milton:
So even though that may be the right decision, I choose not to do it because I don't know what's going to happen. Typically, folks like that will choose the safe routes and those kinds of things. And most of the times in which I was successful is when I was actually thinking outside the box. Because war just like success. It's not linear.
George A. Milton:
It's just not. And you have to figure out, given where you are oftentimes, that if you want to make sure that your people are doing everything that they possibly can to become successful, give them the freedom to be more creative. And giving them that freedom means giving them the freedom to fail. Yeah.
Mark Graban:
And I have no military experience personally, and there's clearly some mistaken perceptions from movies, media, popular culture. I don't think people associate the military with creativity. We associate the military with do what you're told and follow orders. And getting barked at if you fail.
George A. Milton:
Oh, man. Yeah. That's a big mistake, sir. That's all hollywood, baby. That's all hollywood, man.
George A. Milton:
That's not how this works. Look, some of the greatest leaders our country has ever known. You ever heard of Artie Murphy? Old Texas boy? West Texas?
George A. Milton:
Yes. Right? I mean, that's a great example right there. Battlefield commission, all these kinds of things. I mean, he wasn't someone that folks would necessarily know unless they know his history or they're from Texas.
George A. Milton:
But even way back in the day, it's always been one of these situations where, look, when folks are yelled at and barked at, that's not because they're being picked on most of the time. It's because sometimes in order to be able to make things happen, that's what needs to take place. Let me give you a story here. So I have this troop that I a family member, as a matter of fact. So he was deployed to Fallujah and in Iraq, and he was telling me a story about how, man, the military has gotten to the point to where it's so soft and I can't even lead my folks in the way in which I need to.
George A. Milton:
He says, I remember when I was a private, right, and we went from Fallujah, went down to Baghdad. He says, we got in this complex attack. We were firing, they were firing. And he says that I was well trained. Well trained.
George A. Milton:
He said that, but he was moving across the street to move to a different position, and the enemy was firing on him. And he says he just froze. Just froze. He didn't know what to do. And he said the next thing he heard right, was his staff sergeant, section sergeant says, hey, Private, you better get your over across that street.
George A. Milton:
And he says, muscle memory. And it just clicked in and he moved out, executed, and took care of the mission. So that is a form of discipline that most folks would see as abusive. That is something that saved that kid's life, right?
Mark Graban:
Right.
George A. Milton:
And most of the times when we're in combat, that's not how that works. So there are different ways that folks are motivated. The kinds of motivations that the military gives us is oftentimes no different than coaching because, look, I've played football, and I can tell you on the football field, very similarly, coaches do the same kinds of things because they want to make sure that you're motivated and that sort of thing. So it's a different way of responding and acting. But the way in which the movies portray us as these folks who are not thinkers, brother, let me tell you, I come into the army with no degrees, right, because of the education that I have.
George A. Milton:
And I got in the military. I have four degrees, two masters, 17 hours toward a doctorate, right? That came from my military educational level. Who can take a good old country boar from East Texas not knowing much of anything? Bring him on.
George A. Milton:
Educate him to where he's briefing parliament, to where he's briefing ambassadors monthly on different types of things that are going on. So those are the kinds of people now, remember, Private, very uneducated. So I can tell you I have been to, what, 25 schools that the military, and that's not those degrees I mentioned a moment ago, 25 different schools that the military said I had to go to. That's how skilled we are educationally. Yeah.
George A. Milton:
And that's what we imbue within the confines of those that we lead. Education is incredibly important within the confines of our construct.
Mark Graban:
Well, and we're better off for it, seems. It's fascinating to me. I don't read a lot of books about the military, military leadership, military history. One book I did read that was very, very popular is a business book. General Stanley McChrystal in his book Team of Teams, which was incredibly eye opening to me about continued evolution of realizing that you can't I'm going to paraphrase it and correct me if I'm doing it badly, but if the old command and control model said, well, the big thinkers, the generals, the strategic thinkers will come up with a perfect plan, and everyone barks orders down the chain, and everyone just follows those orders equals victory.
Mark Graban:
As opposed to I remember one thing general McCrystall was writing about talking about Commander's intent and talking about the purpose and what we're trying to accomplish, but then granting autonomy within certain training and parameters to figure out how to achieve the mission. Is that an okay paraphrasing?
George A. Milton:
Yes. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Look, you can give people all kinds of orders that you want, but at the end of the day, number one, the enemy gets a vote. So any plan that you come up with on the last until first contact, right?
George A. Milton:
So we have to have people who are in those foxholes, even our privates, all the way down from the pentagon, general officers, all the way down to the foxhole, and anything in between. We have to have folks who are thinkers, not just folks who are doers. There needs to be the doer part. But we have folks that we literally I had privates running shops for me that staff sergeants and sergeant first classes should have been running, but they had other missions so I could take privates because they were trained so well and because we taught them to actually think. So it's okay to have a strategic plan because you need those.
George A. Milton:
It's okay to make sure that the leaders understand what the mission is, but it's even more important to make sure that those folks who are going to be doing those missions understand what the concept is and what the end states are and how to actually accomplish that. So we have to have folks who are, I mean, who are absolutely thinkers there. And I can tell you, one of the reasons I was able to go to the army war college where I received my second master's degree is because I had my first master's degree. So I proved that, look, I have the capacity and the brain power to be able to think strategically and to be able to accomplish a very difficult educational program. Yes.
George A. Milton:
You know, general McChrystal, I actually went out and did some work with him for general mattis, actually doing the plus up of those soldiers out in afghanistan. Yeah. So brilliant warrior and most of those folks who are of his particular mindset, they require that we are hard thinkers. General mattis tremendous, tremendous marine. And let me tell you, I asked him a question one time when I was at joint forces command, there was a rumor that was going around that he didn't own television.
George A. Milton:
I'm always trying to learn, and I asked a question, and I said, sir, is it true that you don't own a television? And he looks at me and he's like, well, look, anything that's been done is being done or will be done has already been done. And you find that in books, right? So our soldiers, our general officers and those high speed leaders, they have what they call a. Reading list.
George A. Milton:
And if you're really serious about learning who we are and what we do, most of those of us, we understand that, look, you got to read these books. So we are folks who are well read. Well, I'm telling you right now, during my day, we're folks who are well read and that sort of thing because history is incredibly important and the longer you stay in the military, it becomes even more so.
Mark Graban:
I feel like I made a mistake where I could have teed up your thoughts much more efficiently by just asking, what do you think of the book Team of Teams by General no?
George A. Milton:
You did well.
Mark Graban:
I don't mean to be civilian, splaining something about the military.
George A. Milton:
You did well, brother, let me tell you. Hey, we're a team. Some people are understanding what you're saying. Some are understanding what I'm saying. Hopefully, by the time you're not done, they're all going to be understanding everything we're saying.
Mark Graban:
Well, thank you for allowing me to fail graciously you're being a leader. I wanted to ask, speaking of generals and the first episode that I listened to of your podcast, and again, that podcast is called Failure is not the Problem. You interviewed General Welton Chase, and I'm going to go listen to that episode. Again, everything the two of you were saying for me, being not military, not army, was just so powerful. Could you give a few highlights of your discussion with General Chase?
George A. Milton:
Yeah, look, General Chase is just tremendous leader. I mean, tremendous, tremendous, tremendous leader. And he's working with Cisco now, doing some great stuff. And in talking to General Chase for me, anyway, I worked with him when I was in European command, and he was just one of those leaders that you gravitated toward him because he was one of the most gracious leaders that I'd ever actually served with. And he is one of those servant leaders, right?
George A. Milton:
So if you want to learn a good lesson from a great leader, you need to follow and listen to that particular podcast and listen to some of the lessons that Journal Chase is talking about, because he's talking about the importance of leadership, but he's really talking about how to be a gracious leader. And those who are someone who's in support, oftentimes we think of our journal officers and we think about those folks being just those hard nosed kinds of people. And man, I tell you, the vast majority of those guys and gals and ladies and gentlemen, when they get to that particular level, they are some of the most gracious people on the planet. So in talking to General Chase, what comes loud and clear is that when it comes to leading people, when it comes to making mistakes, when it comes to having plans that are in place, it's all about being a gracious leader in those positions of leadership and authority because we are given the honor of look, those of us who have been to war know this is that most people on this planet will never, ever be in a position whereby they decide who's going to live and die on any given day. And leaders at not only general officer levels, but even at some of the lower levels in terms of squad leaders, right, platoon sergeants, first one, those kinds of things, on any given day, they can decide on who goes on a particular mission and may not ever make it back.
George A. Milton:
So that's why it's important to be able to have the types of leaders in place. That journalist Hayes is referring to mark doing that podcast.
Mark Graban:
I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. It was powerful. Others will listen to that. So George, in your book and as you talk, I want to ask you about the three things you say leaders need to do. The word gracious and graciously has already come up.
Mark Graban:
So I'm going to just run down the three and I want to ask you about each of them. First off, fail graciously. Secondly, get comfortable with your failures. And third, learn from your failures. What does it mean to you to fail graciously?
Mark Graban:
How can we do a better job of that?
George A. Milton:
Look, the first person that you have to give grace to is yourself, right? So you're not perfect even though people think that you are and say that you are. So not only does one need to remember that there are certain talent, skills, skills and abilities that one actually has. And if you make a decision and that decision turns out well, then good on you. That's great, that's fantastic.
George A. Milton:
But the thing is, if it does not turn out well, don't beat yourself up so much, okay? If you made the right decision based upon the resources that you had, based upon the mission as you understood it and it didn't turn out well, then be okay with failing, be okay with not getting it right necessarily the first time, especially if you don't get anybody injured and that sort of thing. The second issue is you need to be graceful and gracious to those who serve. Because in the same way that you're making the decisions, the best ones you could, so are they. It is the exception of anybody that actually goes out and tries to sabotage a mission, that sort of thing.
George A. Milton:
So when you have leaders that are out there, whether it's in the military or not, and their folks are not accomplishing the goals, maybe you need to look in the mirror. Also, maybe it's all about the training by which they've received. So if they've not gotten the right information communicated to them in the right sorts of ways, then perhaps needs to take a look at self first. And then if you have taken a good look at self and you did give the information out and they did not perform as well as you thought, give grace anyway, because there's going to come a day in which you're going to be in a situation trying to make a decision. It's not going to turn out real well.
George A. Milton:
And when you do that sort of thing, Mark, you empower people to pass that on. And when you do that sort of thing, it strengthens the team as opposed to brutalizing the team.
Mark Graban:
And when you talk about not beating yourself up, that seems to be part of the second point of getting comfortable with failures, to be able to then .3 learn from them. But I want to have you kind of repeat or elaborate on how the idea of getting comfortable with failures doesn't mean that we welcome them or that we take them, that we're flippant about failure. I know that's not what you're saying.
George A. Milton:
No, it's okay to welcome failure because it's a part of life. Someone says that failure is not an option. Failure is always an option because failure is a part of the construct. Yeah, right.
Mark Graban:
I'm still having trouble coming to terms with that. Clearly the way I framed that question. Sorry to interrupt.
George A. Milton:
No, it's okay.
Mark Graban:
It doesn't mean that we have to be happy about our failures or I don't know, maybe I'm still not getting it right.
George A. Milton:
No. Well, let me ask this crazy question here. It depends on the failure, right? So why can't we be happy with our failures? Right?
George A. Milton:
I think it depends because there's been failures that I thought, God, Lee, man, I'm glad that I realized that I shouldn't have taken that path. And if I hadn't have failed, then I would have ended up in a very bad place. Right. So I was given a mission one time that was a suicide mission. And had I not actually spoken up, then we would have gotten a lot of people killed.
George A. Milton:
And because I did not take that mission on, some thought it was failure. They absolutely thought it was failure. Right. But I went back to the boss and says, hey, boss, here's what would have taken place. I don't believe that.
George A. Milton:
I said, well, let me give you the mission like you gave it to me and I gave it to him. And he says, you know what? I'm glad you convinced me not to take that mission because now I see your point. He says, I didn't think about it like that. And I said, well, you're in a position of leadership and authority to whereby you don't have to think about it like that.
George A. Milton:
We have to think about it like that because we understand the battlefield. We understand, look, dude, I've been shot at, blown, I mean, just crazy stuff that I've not even talked a lot about, right. But it's okay. And you need to get comfortable with understanding that failure. Right.
George A. Milton:
If you take anyone who has been successful, I promise you, if you talk to them just because they don't revel in their failures doesn't mean they're not happy that they have failed because they learned in the process. You go back to we talked earlier about Steve Jobs, right. When Steve Jobs initially got fired from the company that he created, he came back twelve years later, created product brands. Now he goes on and he talks about had he not been fired, he said he was happy he was fired because in the process of being fired, it forced him or motivated him to think differently. And in thinking differently right.
George A. Milton:
He come up with a lot of different types of projects. You don't think he was happy that he failed? Absolutely. Sorry he even mentions that.
Mark Graban:
And I'm going to jump in for the listener who might be confused. You talked about Steve Jobs in the episode of your podcast that I was on.
George A. Milton:
Oh, that's right.
Mark Graban:
Episode already, then, yeah, they're with you. And if they haven't listened to that episode, I will put a link to that in the show notes. I don't think we figured out which episode is going to be released first. We'll figure that out. We'll figure that out.
George A. Milton:
But Mark, to your point, I do, I get excited. I mean, I'm excited when I fail because I'm very comfortable now. There was a time when I wasn't comfortable with my failing. Right. And when I wasn't comfortable, man, I felt sick.
George A. Milton:
Stigmatized. Right. I felt like all of this stigma, I felt like people are going to be they're not going to think I have any value. They're going to think I'm stupid. They're going to think I'm dumb.
George A. Milton:
They're going to think I'm not worth much. I mean, they're just not. So I worried about that. So I couldn't even function properly. But when I got to a point to where I embraced my failure, I was happy about that.
George A. Milton:
When I got to a point to where I learned from my failure, I was happy about that. When I got to a point to where I could teach other people how to become successful through their failures, I'm excited about that. So that's really what I'm talking about when I talk about being happy and okay with failures. Yeah.
Mark Graban:
And I think that's where you and I share a lot of mindset around this. Because you had asked me when I was guest on your episode about some tips. And one thing I shared about was I think I have a relatively high willingness to admit mistakes. And I think that leads to acceptance and removing stigma and normalizing. I made a mistake, so let's admit it.
Mark Graban:
But then I think part of one thing I know I'm very happy about is the improvement. I am much happier about looking forward well, moving forward by kind of looking back like, well, why did that mistake occur? What can we do to prevent a repeat of that mistake? I feel better about that probably than I feel bad about the mistake. And if I don't have an opportunity to learn and improve, all that I've got left is being able to look backward and to continue feeling bad about the mistake.
George A. Milton:
I think. Well said. Here's what came to mind when you said that everybody has heard this name, Simon Sinek, the why guru. And I understand that, right? But here's what I do.
George A. Milton:
When it comes to failure, it's not about why. Most people know why they do stuff. I mean, they just kind of do, right? For me, when it comes to failure, it's about now what right? So don't worry about why you failed, okay?
George A. Milton:
So you failed. I love know in one of the episodes of the, you know, Simba has gone out and he's run away from home and he's thought know, he's responsible for Mufasa's death and that sort of thing. And he's just kunamatan out there with his boys hanging out and Rafiki is like, dude, we got to get this guy back home because he is the rifle king. So he goes out and he says, you know what the spirits are saying that Simba's alive. So he goes and he finds him.
George A. Milton:
And he finds him. He says, Simba, you need to come home. And what does Simba do? He talks about all the failures, all the stuff that was in the past. Rafiki takes his club and he hits him side the head and he says, ouch, that hurt.
George A. Milton:
And Rafiki says, don't worry about it. It's in the past, right? If you've had a mistake or a failure, right, it's in the past. You can learn from that. But don't dwell on that sort of.
Mark Graban:
Thing really about the I mean, and I think some of it, it's very situational. I do a lot of work in healthcare. If there's a mistake or a failure, if the wrong medication is given to a patient, that is absolutely something we do want to understand why and how that occurred. Not who did it, but looking forward of like, let's learn from it, let's prevent it from happening. And when people don't feel safe to admit that they almost made a mistake, then we don't learn from it.
Mark Graban:
And then it gets repeated in a way that does create harm. And that's some of the sad lost opportunity in healthcare.
George A. Milton:
Yeah, look, whether it's the why or the what now what gets us in trouble is denial, right? That's really a big part of this. And oftentimes folks who fail, they get into the denial piece and they don't want to accept and embrace. And they don't want to accept and embrace because of the stigma that's associated with it. And oftentimes they don't want to accept the responsibility for it is because they know what's going to happen.
George A. Milton:
Because that company, that leader, those folks are responsible for them, have a history of punishing them and punishing folks that they've actually seen. So we condition folks to respond in the way in which we don't want them to respond. Whereas if we allowed for them to feel safe when they failed, then I think that in my view, in my case, in my experiences, anytime I made it okay and safe to fail, as long as they were learning, folks owned up and took 100% responsibility for the decisions they made.
Mark Graban:
Yes. George, one other question I want to ask before we wrap up here. I think when it comes to learning, comfort, learning, you talk a lot about how failing can be fun, and I think it's fair to say when we're having fun, we learn more. So I'm curious your thoughts on how those ideas are connected, fun and learning when it comes to failure.
George A. Milton:
Yeah, look, I guess for me, I took failure so seriously most of my life, as opposed to making it fun, but it's incredibly important to learn how to laugh when you don't accomplish something. I think laughter is one of those things that just makes us feel good about ourselves. Right. There's been times in which I literally had some failures that I thought were very serious, and in the large scheme of things, they weren't very serious at all. And it's okay to laugh itself when you go out and you fail.
George A. Milton:
Right. We've been conditioned to look at it in the wrong sorts of ways. You take kids. I mean, if we really look at failure, failure doesn't even really exist. I mean, it really and truly doesn't if you take children, right?
George A. Milton:
Kids and all of us, we've done this. We go out and we try to accomplish a task or something. And if we accomplish that task, Mark, what do we do? We just kind of move on to something else, right? If we go out and we try to accomplish that task and we don't accomplish it, and people start calling us failures, that's when failure enters our thinking and our mindsets up until such time, it just absolutely doesn't.
George A. Milton:
So oftentimes when you've gone out and you didn't know how to ride that bike and I remember several times laughing because I'd fallen off the bike or I didn't ride, and I know I didn't accomplish it, but I never thought about it being a failure. I just thought about, man, I need to get better at this, and laughed. And what I did is eventually learned how to ride the bike instead of giving up. So if you allow yourself to laugh and to learn, oftentimes that propels you to continue to trying. Right.
George A. Milton:
When you make it fun, as opposed to if you're going to be punished or stigmatized or made fun of, you just kind of give up and don't try anymore.
Mark Graban:
And I think you also highlight the difference between the act of failing. Failing to achieve a goal does not mean you are a failure.
George A. Milton:
Oh, absolutely not. No, absolutely not. Look, and that's really about mindset. If you think that you are a perfect person, you are destined to fail. It'll prove you wrong every single time.
George A. Milton:
And we're really good at labeling people. I mean, we're just so good at labeling people. Interesting is that if you take the game of football, the biggest game of the year is the Super Bowl. We all know because we've been conditioned to accept one winner, right? Yeah.
George A. Milton:
And when the Super Bowl winners win, we focus on the guys who won. But we don't call the other team failures. You ever notice that? Yeah. We don't call them failures.
George A. Milton:
We just focus on those who have actually won and those who did not accomplish the goal of winning the Super Bowls are incongrat to the team that actually won because they know next year they're going to get another opportunity, aren't they? Yeah. So the coaches on those teams who did not accomplish that task, they don't call themselves failures. They said, you got to get better next time. They didn't do the kinds of things that they needed to do this time.
George A. Milton:
If we can do that on one of the largest platforms on the planet, why can't we do it in our everyday life with folks that we're responsible for and folks that we lead and those folks that lead us?
Mark Graban:
Well, there's a lot to learn from sports, and clearly there's a lot to learn from the US. Army and some of the leadership mindsets that you've learned and that you've thankfully been willing to share with us here today. And as you continue to share in your books, in your podcast, George, I want to thank you for no, Mark.
George A. Milton:
Thank you so much. Look, this has been fun, right? I mean, we made some mistakes along the way, but it was all fun, right? That's really the point of making failure fun. I mean, most folks, and you've said this, and I subscribe to this also, neither one of our podcasts are polished.
George A. Milton:
It is what it is what happens. It's live, it's real. A lot of dogs or something barking in the rear. Okay, we got that. But as far as content, we try to be real with folks, and we want people out.
George A. Milton:
Listening to you and I having this conversation about mistakes and failure is to remember you're human at the end of the day, right? You are not someone who will live a perfect life and when things don't turn out the way that you want it's, okay. You're going to be fine as long as you're willing to understand that this is part of life. This is part of growth. This is a part of who you are.
George A. Milton:
Remember, guys, it's not what happens to you. It's how you respond to it. So when you fail, you make a mistake. The response to that determines your success or not.
Mark Graban:
That's so well said. We're going to just leave it there? I think so. George A. Milton, our guest today.
Mark Graban:
The podcast, his books, his company. Failure is not the problem. George, I'm so happy that we could have two conversations here this afternoon on your show and mine, and I really look forward to continuing this conversation with you. This has been great.
George A. Milton:
Thanks, Mark. I welcome the opportunity to work with you in the future. And thank you so much for being gracious enough to have me on your show. It's been an honor and a pleasure and a lot of fun. Thank you.
Mark Graban:
The honor is mine. Thank you.