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My guest for Episode #283 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Jean Jacques “JJ” Brun… also known as Operative 431.
As a seasoned veteran of the Intelligence Branch of the Canadian Armed Forces, he served with distinction as a contact handler on the ground in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Years in the discrete world of human intelligence and counter human intelligence have driven my desire to understand human behavior’s intricacies and pass on the complex notion of interpersonal communication.
Although retired from active duty, JJ realized much of what he learned could be utilized in the civilian world. Based on the Four Temperament (DISC) Model of Human Behaviour to better understand and maximize human dynamics, his exclusive training programs provide a comprehensive analysis of communication techniques, empowering individuals to enhance authentic relationships that promote trust, innovation, and productivity.
In this episode, the conversation explores JJ Brun's transition from his role as an intelligence operative in the Canadian Armed Forces to applying his expertise in the civilian world. JJ shares stories from his time in Bosnia and the challenges of adapting to intelligence work without formal military training. He discusses key lessons learned, including the importance of self-awareness, situational awareness, and using behavioral models like DISC to understand and build relationships. The episode highlights how these skills, initially developed for high-stakes intelligence work, have proven valuable in helping leaders and organizations understand human dynamics more effectively.
Questions and Topics:
- What does it mean to be a contact handler in intelligence?
- What would you say is your favorite mistake?
- Did anyone know you didn’t finish the last mile of the marchathon?
- Was the training in the UK meant to prepare you for being on the other side of an interrogation?
- How did you handle the potential for mistakes being deadly in intelligence work?
- What was the Oka crisis?
- What is involved in being a contact handler?
- Was the debrief after your training focused on learning from mistakes, or did you get reprimanded?
- How did you adapt to working in a war zone like Bosnia?
- What’s the value of using the DISC model in your work today?
- Can people learn more about your work and the DISC model through your website?
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- Quotes
- Full transcript
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Automated Transcript (May Contain Mistakes)
Mark Graban:
Hi. Welcome to My Favorite Mistake. I'm your host, Mark Graban. Our guest today is JJ Brun, also known as Jean Jacques Brun, which is more fun to say, but we're going to go with JJ. He's also known, or was known, as Operative 431. So you might be wondering what that means. Well, JJ is a seasoned veteran of the intelligence branch of the Canadian Armed Forces. He served with distinction as a contact handler on the ground in Bosnia and Herzegovina. So we might get to talk about what that means—to be a contact handler and working in intelligence. But he's now retired from active duty, and JJ realized much of what he learned could be utilized in the civilian world, as we'll talk about here. He's learned and done a lot of work with the DISC model of human behavior that you might have heard of to better understand and maximize human dynamics. So we're going to talk about the work that JJ does now and how you can learn from him. But first off, JJ, welcome to the show. How are you?
JJ Brun:
Excellent. Pleasure to be here, Mark.
Mark Graban:
So you're Canadian. Would you say you're francophone or have a French background with a name like Jean Jacques?
JJ Brun:
Yeah, definitely. Definitely francophone. When I was born, my mom gave me all the J names—Jean Jacques Joseph. Roughly translated, it would be John Brown. But here's the thing, Mark: people had a hard time. The anglophones had a hard time pronouncing “Jean” and it came out as “Gene” and “Jean.” Then, when I was working overseas, a British colleague said, “Hi, JJ.” And I answered, and I got branded. So JJ became the working name that people kind of preferred because it's easy to spell and remember.
Mark Graban:
Easy to say. And in my American enthusiasm to try to say something French, I didn't quite say it right. And then, of course, I hit the last name hard with the “n” at the end. So my mistake. But we're going to talk about your favorite mistake. JJ, I'm curious—what would you say is your favorite mistake?
JJ Brun:
When I was reflecting on that question before getting on the call, there were so many flashbacks—so many memories, or what I would call character-building moments. Like, “Here's what not to do.” And then I'm like, “Oh my gosh, what could I share that people can relate to?” Primary school was the first thing that came to mind. We had a marchathon, where you collected money. It was 11 miles, and of course, as a kid, you want to be the one that collects the most money to get recognition from the teacher and the school. I had all these people marked, and they were going to give me $0.50 here and a dollar there, and I was going to do 11 miles. But I had never done any long-distance marching or a marathon. And I just remember that I quit at mile 10 that year—I was missing one mile. And the guilt trip of not finishing, and then still collecting the money, knowing that I failed, was so strong that the following year, I redid the march, but I didn't collect the money—I just did the march. And the pleasure that came from that was so much better.
Mark Graban:
That's interesting. It sounds like there's a through line of those stories—of getting it right the second time, or at least, if you don't get it right the first time, that it's only a failure if you quit trying. I think back to similar experiences. I think they might have called it a walkathon when I was a kid. I remember that kind of fundraiser, and people pledged a certain amount per mile. I don't remember a whole lot other than the sheet that you would have people fill out. But did anybody, including your parents or anybody else, know that you didn't do that last mile?
JJ Brun:
Oh, yeah. They saw me. Because when you were finishing, you had to walk in front of our house, right in the middle of the village, and at the school. And that day, they saw me in a car. So, there was no hiding. They knew that I didn't finish. And it didn't matter that it was just a mile. I did 10 miles, but I didn't finish the 11th mile. For them, it could have been from the beginning.
Mark Graban:
And the guilt?
JJ Brun:
Yeah. The guilt was so strong because I still collected the money, and the people I collected it from somehow knew I didn't finish. That made it worse.
Mark Graban:
So, they just knew? And there’s sort of a theme in your stories of getting things right on the second try. Did anyone ever tell you that you were a slow learner?
JJ Brun:
I think I was. High school was tough for me. Some people would read a book and just get it, but I didn’t. My learning style was different, so I had to work harder. But I learned a lot of lessons, and that’s what mattered. Then, when I joined the military, I thought I’d never have to go back to school. But guess what? Boot camp is school, and you’re going to learn. We were evaluated every week, and on week four, I was standing at attention beside my bed, waiting for my inspection. They gave me four reports to read and sign, saying that I’d read them. I had high marks in everything except drill. I thought, “I didn’t remember taking a course on how to use a drill. How can I raise my mark in drill?” I thought they meant a power drill. I was clueless.
Mark Graban:
Oh, they meant military drill, like marching?
JJ Brun:
Exactly. Every day, we were marched out to a hangar, yelled at for 90 minutes, and then marched back. That was military drill. I thought the marching and yelling were just to toughen us up. When I finally realized what “drill” meant, I put effort into it. But I always had poor marks. Fast forward two years, and I was in Quebec City with the Royal 22nd Regiment. I volunteered for the Red Guard, the Queen's honor guards, where you wear a red uniform with a black bearskin hat. By the end of the season, I was celebrated as one of the best drillsmen. It’s interesting—two years before, I was terrible at drill, and now I was excelling.
Mark Graban:
That's a great example of growth. So, what does it mean to be a contact handler?
JJ Brun:
A contact handler is a person who is sent into a hostile environment to cultivate sources, determine their intentions, and influence their behavior when needed. It involves building relationships by design, not by chance. You can't use coercion or money—you have to understand people's motivations and build trust. It’s about understanding how to connect with people and get them to share information willingly.
Mark Graban:
It sounds like you were in situations where mistakes could have been deadly. How did you deal with that?
JJ Brun:
Awareness was key. One time, I was driving a team, and as I turned a curve, I saw holes in the road that had been covered. The week before, it had been mined. I almost drove us into a minefield because I didn’t pay attention to the reports. Situational awareness is crucial—knowing what's happening around you at all times can save lives.
Mark Graban:
So, you mentioned going to the UK for training. What was that experience like?
JJ Brun:
It was intense. I volunteered to go to the UK, thinking it would be cool, but it was for an interrogator course. The training was very different from what we do in Canada. On the first day, we were stripped naked, put into a cell, and subjected to a hostile interrogation. It was a shock, but it taught me a lot about behavioral analysis—how people’s movements and expressions can reveal so much. It was a learning experience that stuck with me.
Mark Graban:
Was the idea to prepare you for being on the other side of an interrogation?
JJ Brun:
Yes, exactly. Their argument was, if you’re going to be an interrogator, you need to know what it feels like to be interrogated. It was meant to simulate the real experience as closely as possible, so you’d understand the stress and pressure involved.
Mark Graban:
You eventually worked in Bosnia. How did that training prepare you for being in a war zone?
JJ Brun:
It prepared me to adapt quickly. In Bosnia, I worked with French and British troops, and our safe house was managed by an American. My training taught me how to navigate those relationships and adjust my communication style. It’s about adapting to the environment and understanding the culture you’re in.
Mark Graban:
And now you use the DISC model. How does that fit into your work?
JJ Brun:
The DISC model helps me understand communication styles, which is crucial for building relationships. It allows me to read people and adjust my approach to match their style. I’ve spent over 35,000 hours studying and applying this model. It’s been a powerful tool for understanding how to communicate more effectively with different personalities.
Mark Graban:
Where can people learn more about you and the DISC model?
JJ Brun:
They can go to my website, theretiredspy.com. There are two free downloads: one explains what DISC is, and the other includes the ten most effective, feel-good, ice-breaking questions I used in the field. And people can schedule a complimentary call if they want to learn more.
Mark Graban:
Well, JJ, it’s been a really unique and interesting conversation today. Thank you so much for sharing and being a guest on the show.
JJ Brun:
My pleasure, Mark. Have a great day.
Episode Summary and More
Learning From Mistakes: The Journey of JJ Brun, Operative 431
Introduction to JJ Brun's Story
JJ Brun, also fondly known as Jean Jacques Brun, is a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces' intelligence branch and has had a fascinating career arc. Nicknamed “Operative 431,” JJ served on the ground in Bosnia and Herzegovina as a contact handler. Transitioning from military service to the civilian world, JJ has applied his skills to better understand human dynamics using the DISC model of human behavior. His journey has been filled with numerous challenges, each offering a lesson in resilience, adaptation, and growth.
Early Lessons and Character Building Moments
One of JJ’s early formative experiences was during a fundraising walkathon in primary school. Like many young students, he was eager to collect the most money and gain recognition. However, this ambition led to his first lesson in endurance and guilt when he quit just a mile short of the goal. The following year, driven by the guilt of not finishing and still collecting money, he completed the march without accepting any donations. This act demonstrated the profound impact of early failures and how they can shape our future endeavors.
Similarly, JJ reflected on his high school years, marking them as significant character-building periods. His initial year in football, despite feeling like a total failure, taught him perseverance and laid a foundation for future resilience. These anecdotes underscore the importance of viewing early setbacks as opportunities for growth.
Military Career and Humbling Beginnings
JJ’s decision to join the military was spurred by a disagreement with his father and the need for an exit strategy from university. With no prior military training or familiarity with firearms, JJ embarked on this new path with an open mind but little expectation. Basic training, or boot camp, quickly shattered any illusions of escaping academic rigor, as each week brought new evaluations and challenges.
A humorous yet enlightening incident occurred during boot camp, where JJ misinterpreted the term “drill.” As a French speaker, he associated the term with tools rather than the military practice of marching formations. After receiving low marks in drill, JJ took the initiative to improve, eventually excelling and being celebrated as one of the best drillsmen in his regiment. This experience highlighted the principle of conceptual consistency, where initial impressions can persist until actively challenged and improved upon.
Realizations and Growth in Military Intelligence
JJ’s journey into military intelligence began when he volunteered for an interrogator course in the UK, intrigued by the opportunity to travel. This experience marked his entry into intelligence operations, where he was accredited as Operative 431. Despite the lack of formal training and initial struggles, JJ’s persistence paid off as he adapted and excelled in his role.
The principle of learning through repetition came into play during his military service. Whether it was enduring rigorous boot camp evaluations or mastering the complexities of intelligence operations, JJ’s willingness to learn from each failure underscored his growth. His ability to pivot and embrace new opportunities solidified his reputation as a skilled intelligence operator.
Applying Military Lessons to Civilian Life
After retiring from active duty, JJ recognized that much of what he learned in the military could be beneficial in the civilian world. Utilizing the DISC model of human behavior, JJ now focuses on helping others understand and maximize human dynamics. His military background provided a unique perspective, enabling him to navigate and interpret complex interpersonal relationships effectively.
JJ’s story is a testament to the transferable nature of skills and lessons learned in one domain to another. His journey from a young student struggling with endurance to a celebrated intelligence operative and civilian consultant illustrates the enduring value of resilience and continuous learning.
Takeaways from JJ Brun's Journey
JJ Brun’s experiences emphasize the importance of learning from mistakes and the power of second chances. From his early days in primary school to his distinguished military career and successful civilian transition, JJ's story is one of perseverance and adaptability. Each failure and subsequent triumph provided valuable lessons, reinforcing the notion that true failure only occurs when one stops trying. JJ’s journey offers a compelling narrative of growth, illustrating how challenges can be transformed into stepping stones for success.
Learning From Mistakes: The Journey of JJ Brun, Operative 431
Working Under Pressure: JJ Brun’s Bilingual Role During the Gulf War and Oka Crisis
With the nickname Operative 431, JJ Brun’s bilingual skills became a vital asset. Due to the Canadian military's push for bilingualism, his first posting was at the national headquarters, which proved incredibly demanding during pivotal historical moments like the first Gulf War and the Oka Crisis. These roles honed his ability to operate under incredible pressure.
The Oka Crisis: JJ's Involvement
The Oka Crisis in Quebec in 1990 presented JJ with multifaceted challenges. Initially ignited by a land dispute from the proposed expansion of a golf course onto land claimed by the Mohawk nation, the conflict escalated rapidly. Local police intervention failed, followed by the provincial police's unsuccessful attempts. When tensions escalated further, the federal authorities stepped in, and ultimately, the military was called as the last resort to restore peace.
JJ's former unit was among those deployed, engaging in a 30-day standoff that culminated in a peaceful resolution. Once the immediate crisis was resolved, the responsibility seamlessly transitioned back from the military to federal, provincial, and then local policing authorities. This episode highlighted the delicate balance and intricate coordination required between different levels of law enforcement and the military during such crises.
The Importance of Specialized Training: Interrogator Course in the UK
Soon after proving his value in various high-pressure scenarios, JJ was volunteered for a specialized role in prisoner handling and tactical questioning, termed an interrogator course in the UK. This presented a new and demanding challenge, affording him the opportunity to travel internationally for the first time.
Upon arrival in Montreal, JJ encountered an unexpected twist—despite his military orders routing him through multiple countries, an Air Canada stewardess managed to rebook JJ directly to London, providing him a serendipitous upgrade to first class, marking his initial experience of high comfort travel—a taste that would be hard to forget but rarely replicated.
The Interrogation Training: A Baptism by Fire
The interrogator course was both rigorous and eye-opening. British training methods starkly contrasted with what JJ had previously experienced in Canada. The training commenced with intense and immersive scenarios designed to break down any preconceived notions of interrogation. Stripped naked and subjected to a hostile interrogation, JJ quickly realized the psychological depth of this training.
Here, he encountered Behavioral Symptom Analysis (BSA), an aspect that gripped his attention. Through observing his physiological and micro-movements, his trainers were able to gather significant information without him uttering a word. This profound insight into human behavior forged an indelible impression on JJ, leading him to delve deeper into related fields like Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP).
Practical Application of Psychological Techniques
A key takeaway from the interrogator course was the power of experiential learning. Being subjected to the same stressors and scrutiny as potential interrogatees allowed JJ to comprehend the emotional and psychological turmoil experienced during interrogations, which would, in turn, refine his approach.
Experiencing the Interrogation Techniques
Experience proved to be the best teacher. The British training regimen included various forms of psychological pressure and physical discomfort. There were different courses running simultaneously: an escape and evasion course, a prisoner handling course, and an interrogation course. Each provided a comprehensive understanding of the processes involved.
JJ observed firsthand that interrogators needed to master various approaches—from harsh and relentless questioning to more nuanced psychological tactics. Realistic scenarios including strip searches and inducing psychological angst were employed to teach future interrogators the gravity and effectiveness of these methods.
Mastering the Techniques
Learning to apply these techniques involved a thorough understanding and mastery of various interrogation approaches:
- Fatherly Approach: Creating a sense of trust and authority.
- Dumb Approach: Pretending ignorance to lure the interrogatee into revealing information.
- Harsh Approach: Sustained aggressive questioning for psychological stress.
These methods were not only challenging but also remarkably effective in breaking down mental barriers of resistant subjects. JJ leveraged this training to gain deeper insights, which significantly benefited his later roles.
From Training to Field Application
Returning from the rigorous course with new skills and certifications, JJ was prepared to employ these techniques in real-world scenarios.
Readjusting to Canadian Context
Despite the stark cultural and procedural differences between the UK and Canadian military contexts, JJ’s newly acquired skills in interrogation and behavioral analysis allowed him to excel in various roles. Understanding the subtle cues and psychological triggers became his forte, enabling him to navigate complex human interactions with greater precision.
Developing Expertise in Human Dynamics
JJ continued to build on his knowledge base post-training, eventually applying these lessons to broader aspects of human dynamics. His grounded experiences in military interrogations provided a robust foundation for his subsequent commitment to understanding and teaching others about human behavior through the DISC model.
Stay tuned for more insights into JJ's transition from a military operative to a civilian consultant, utilizing his unique skills to navigate and elucidate complex human interactions.
From Training to Field Application
Returning from the rigorous course with new skills and certifications, JJ was prepared to employ these techniques in real-world scenarios.
Readjusting to Canadian Context
Despite the stark cultural and procedural differences between the UK and Canadian military contexts, JJ’s newly acquired skills in interrogation and behavioral analysis allowed him to excel in various roles. Understanding the subtle cues and psychological triggers became his forte, enabling him to navigate complex human interactions with greater precision.
Developing Expertise in Human Dynamics
JJ continued to build on his knowledge base post-training, eventually applying these lessons to broader aspects of human dynamics. His grounded experiences in military interrogations provided a robust foundation for his subsequent commitment to understanding and teaching others about human behavior through the DISC model.
The Role of a Contact Handler
Transitioning into the role of a contact handler marked a significant pivot in JJ’s career. Human intelligence (HUMINT), unlike technical intelligence platforms such as signal (SIGINT) or imagery intelligence (IMINT), relied on face-to-face interactions. JJ found himself in a new arena where cultivating and managing contacts was crucial for gathering intelligence.
Establishing Rapport in Hostile Environments
Being a contact handler required JJ to build purposeful relationships in unpredictable and often hostile environments. The role wasn’t about coercing information; instead, it revolved around understanding individuals’ motivations and creating opportunities for them to share information willingly. This skill set proved invaluable in Bosnia, where the complexities of war-torn societies necessitated astute interpersonal skills.
Learning Through Real-World Interactions
Like a fighter pilot who relies on his flight jacket to reflect his identity, JJ’s own experiences mirrored this. His training, while rigorous, couldn’t fully prepare him for the variety of real-world interactions he would face. Whether it was dealing with combative individuals who fiercely resisted cooperation or understanding the subtleties needed to navigate different cultures, JJ had to continually adapt.
- Building Cross-Cultural Relationships: JJ's ability to communicate effectively across cultures, by understanding their unique communication styles, was key. He consistently had to match communication approaches to the preferred styles of his contacts, enhancing their comfort level and willingness to share.
- Handling Adversity: During training, one challenging scenario involved interacting with an uncooperative role player. Initially, JJ's attempts to build rapport through friendly conversation were met with resistance. This simulated encounter underscored the importance of flexibility and persistence in overcoming obstacles to gather valuable information.
Advanced Operations and Daily Life in Bosnia
After excelling in his initial intelligence-gathering efforts, JJ was recognized and recommended for advanced operations by his superiors. His time in Bosnia became a testament to the importance of preparation, vigilance, and adaptability.
Daily Missions and High Stakes
Life in Bosnia demanded constant situational awareness. JJ’s missions started early and ended late, consistently positioning him as one of the most diligent operatives. Driving through potentially mined roads, understanding the intricacies of local conflicts, and making quick, strategic decisions became part of his daily routine.
- Situational Awareness: JJ avoided near-fatal mistakes by constantly staying informed and aware of his environment. This vigilance often required analyzing reports and understanding recent developments to avoid hazards like mines.
- Cultural Adaptability: Working closely with the French military, JJ leveraged his bilingual skills to build strong relationships, often flexing his discussions depending on whether he was interacting with French, British, or American colleagues. This adaptability was crucial for smooth operations and effective collaboration.
The Shift to Self-Awareness and Legacy Building
JJ’s journey didn’t end with tactical expertise; it also led him to a deeper understanding of himself and his potential impact. He moved beyond situational and environmental awareness towards self-awareness, a crucial step for anyone aiming for long-term influence.
Self-Awareness and Continuing Growth
The journey of self-awareness involved understanding his strengths and limitations. This reflection enabled JJ to apply his experiences in more impactful ways, ensuring his actions set a foundation for lasting influence.
- Behavioral Models: JJ delved into various behavioral models to better understand human dynamics. Among the many models, the DISC assessment became a pivotal tool for him. It offered a structured way to predict and understand human behavior, which he found immensely practical.
Towards Legacy Awareness
Achieving a level of legacy awareness meant aiming for a lasting impact that outlived his service. For JJ, this translated into teaching and sharing his vast knowledge with others, helping them navigate complex interpersonal dynamics with the same proficiency he attained.
Stay tuned for more insights into JJ's transition from a military operative to a civilian consultant, utilizing his unique skills to navigate and elucidate complex human interactions.
Applying DISC Model to Everyday Interactions
Utilizing the DISC model isn't confined to high-stakes military environments. JJ found its principles to be incredibly versatile and applicable to a broad range of everyday interactions. The model, which categorizes human behavior into four types—Dominance, Influence, Steadiness, and Conscientiousness—proved to be an invaluable tool not just in the field but also in personal settings.
Understanding and Influencing Different Personas
Understanding the subtleties of human behavior so deeply has allowed JJ to communicate more effectively. It wasn't just about military strategy but also resonating with different personas, be it at work, in social settings, or even at home. With over 35,000 hours of studying and applying the DISC model, JJ amassed a wealth of practical knowledge that he could share with others.
- Resonance Through Adaptation: JJ learned to say the same thing in various ways to connect with different personas effectively. For instance, a person with a high need for recognition might need a different approach compared to someone who values consistency and routine.
- Non-Confrontational Influence: JJ emphasizes that understanding human behavior doesn't require force or coercion. Instead, it involves gently navigating “people puzzles,” ensuring they can act in their self-interest without clashing with others.
Parenthood Lessons from Bosnia
Remarkably, JJ discovered that the skills he honed in Bosnia were directly transferable to parenting. Just as he had to understand and cater to various personas in the field, at home, he realized that effective parenting involved understanding his children's unique behavioral traits.
- Recognition and Behavior: For example, children who crave recognition will seek it whether the attention is positive or negative. Understanding this need can prevent misunderstandings and foster a more supportive environment.
- Avoiding Dictatorship: By applying the DISC principles, JJ avoided coming across as dictatorial in his parenting style. Instead, he offered guidance that aligned with each child's specific needs and preferences, leading to more harmonious family dynamics.
JJ's Modern-Day Consulting and Outreach
Today, JJ continues to use his extensive experience to assist organizations and leaders in navigating complex interpersonal dynamics. His transition from a military operative to a civilian consultant highlights the versatility of his expertise.
Educational Resources and Workshops
JJ offers a variety of resources and engagement opportunities to those interested in learning more about the DISC model and effective interpersonal communication.
- Free Downloads and Guides: JJ provides free resources on his website, theretiredspy.com. These include an introductory guide to the DISC model and practical tools like the “Ten Most Effective, Feel-Good Ice-Breaking Questions” that he used overseas.
- Consultations and Workshops: JJ makes himself available for complimentary calls and offers in-depth workshops tailored to organizational needs. These sessions aim to equip participants with the skills to build effective, harmonious relationships both professionally and personally.
Long-term Influence and Teaching
For JJ, the ultimate goal is legacy building—ensuring that his extensive knowledge and experience can benefit others for years to come. This goes beyond one-on-one coaching and dives into creating lasting educational frameworks.
- Scaling Knowledge: By sharing his methodologies and insights widely, JJ aims to positively impact not just individual clients but also the larger community of leaders, parents, and professionals.
- Creating Frameworks: Whether through online courses, speaking engagements, or written guides, JJ strives to create structured learning experiences that are accessible to a broader audience.
Stay tuned for more insights into JJ’s continuing journey from Bosnia to the boardroom, where his unique skills continue to illuminate the intricacies of human behavior and effective communication.