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My guest for Episode #176 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Mike Ulmer. While he specializes in helping business people write their books, he has written 13 books with a total of nearly $1 million in total sales revenue.
His latest book (March 2022) is Show and Tell Writing: A Great Short Business Book About How To Write A Great Short Business Book.
His other recent titles are Drop The Mic Marketing with Jason Hunt (2022), The 50-Year-Old Millennial: The Leadership Gap Exposed By Millennials And How To Close it with Marc Petitpas (2021) and The 40 Ways of The Fox (2021) with Ron Foxcroft.
He worked as the in-house storyteller for the Toronto Maple Leafs, Raptors and TFC as the senior writer at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment.
He has written for The Toronto Star, National Post, Southam News Bureau as well as news organizations across Canada.
Interesting fact — With 170,000 in sales, his book, M is for Maple is the bestselling alphabet book in Canadian publishing history.
In this episode, Mike tells his favorite mistake story about striking a journalist colleague while in flight on a plane. Why did his sense of “grandiosity and recklessness” lead to this moment that changed his life? Why was this a “favorite mistake”? How did this moment make Mike realize that he needed help so he could now lead a better life?
We also talk about questions and topics including:
- As a cancer survivor, why is it a mistake to use the phrase “battle with cancer?”
- Why should people write a business book? You say in your book “everyone should” — why is that?
- Even if you’re not a writer?
- Credibility… Mistake to assume you can also speak?
- Mistake to write with the audience in mind?
- “Have to take a contrarian stance”
- Publishing mistakes?
- Predatory people in the publishing system?
- “When I see the term best seller… bullshit”
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- Full transcript
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Automated Transcript (Likely Contains Mistakes)
Mark Graban (1s):
Episode 176, Mike Ulmer, Canadian journalist and bestselling author.
Mike Ulmer (8s):
My biggest mistake was getting arrested. I was in a confrontation on an airplane where I slapped a coworker.
Mark Graban (22s):
I'm Mark Graban. This is my favorite mistake in this podcast. You'll hear business leaders and other really interesting people talking about their favorite mistakes because we all make mistakes. But what matters is learning from our mistakes instead of repeating them over and over again. So this is the place for honest reflection and conversation, personal growth and professional success. Visit our website at myfavoritemistakepodcast.com. To learn more about Mike Ulmer, his books and his work and more. Look for links in the show notes to go to markgraban.com/mistake176. As always. Thanks for listening now on with the show.
Mark Graban (1m 4s):
Hi, everybody. Welcome to my favorite mistake. I'm Mark Graban and our guest today is Mike Ulmer. He's joining us from Hamilton, Ontario up in the, the great white north of, of Canada. He specializes in helping business people write their books and he's written 13 books with the total of nearly $1 million in total sales revenue. His latest book from March, 2022 is Show and Tell: writing a great short business book about how to write a great short business book. His other recent titles include Drop the Mic Marketing, which Jason Hunt, the 50 year old millennial, the leadership gap exposed by millennials and how to close it with mark peas and The 40 Ways of the Fox with Ron Foxcroft.
Mark Graban (1m 46s):
Mike worked as the in-house storyteller for the Toronto maple Leafs, the Raptors and TFC as the senior writer. That's the, the football club, Toronto football club. Is that right? Mike?
Mike Ulmer (1m 57s):
Is that yeah. Well, football soccer here. Yes, yes.
Mark Graban (1m 59s):
Right. He was senior writer at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, and he had previously written for the Toronto star, the National Post and other news organizations across Canada. So Mike, welcome to the podcast. How are you this morning?
Mike Ulmer (2m 13s):
Oh, thanks Mark. Thank you for having me. I'm great.
Mark Graban (2m 16s):
There's an interesting fact about Mike. He, he wrote a children's book, M is for Maple. It's the best selling alphabet book in Canadian publishing history. So it was a mistake to, to not write more alphabet books or do you get tapped out at some point?
Mike Ulmer (2m 33s):
No, my mistake wasn't saying no, the first three times to it, you know, the publisher was, it took a Michigan publisher to write an alphabet book that was specifically about Canada. And they said, you, Mike, we want you to write this book. And I said, dad, nah. And they said, no, really it should. We, we really think it would be a hit. And, and I said, eh, nah, well, why don't you come down to Chelsea, Michigan? And, and, and we'll talk about it. And they, they gave me lunch and that was the thing. If you feed me, I'm way more amenable. So I did the book and I've talked to thousands and thousands of kids about the book, about writing about Canada. It was the smartest thing I ever did, but I had to be dragged, kicking and screaming to it.
Mark Graban (3m 15s):
Was there debate M is for Mounty versus M is for maple.
Mike Ulmer (3m 19s):
The only thing that they asked for was Anne of Green Gables. She said, I'm, I'm from PEI. So I need Anne of Green Gables. So, and it has poetry. So a is for Anne that's Anne with an E a redheaded girl who loved a Lee, the cuts bird thought they were getting a boy, but that redheaded girl was their pride and their joy. And so I wrote that poem first because it was for, for, and, but no, not am is for mounts four. Oh my goodness. I think they Morris ARD if I memory memory serves.
Mark Graban (3m 53s):
Oh, right. Hockey, hockey player.
Mike Ulmer (3m 57s):
Yes. I've very play for the Montreal Canadian.
Mark Graban (3m 59s):
Yes, that's right. Well, Mike and I, we, we had a really nice chat before we started recording reminiscing about sports. I grew up around Detroit. Mike is in the, you know, close enough to Toronto and we, we had a lot of reminiscing there, but
Mike Ulmer (4m 14s):
Oh yeah, yeah. I'm from Sarnia. So we, we would go across the Creek all the time. Cobo Hall, you name it. So I, Bruce Springsteen at Cobo Hall.
Mark Graban (4m 23s):
Oh, wow. Right, right. Across the river from, or just up the river and across from Detroit,
Mike Ulmer (4m 28s):
Our way.
Mark Graban (4m 29s):
Yeah. Mike's website. If you wanna learn more about his books and the services he provides to authors, it's getcatapulted.com. And I think we'll, we'll come back and, and, and talk more about that questions about writing and, and, and publishing. But as we always do here, Mike, you know, we kind of jump into the, the core question at hand, you know, thinking back to your career and the different things you've done. What is your favorite mistake?
Mike Ulmer (4m 55s):
Well, boy, it's, it's sort of hard Mark to, to find just one, but my biggest mistake was getting arrested. I was in a confrontation on an airplane where I slapped a coworker. Now, now people look at me and go, you're the guy that I would reach for in the fight. If you know, everyone sort of doubles up in a, in a big hockey fight. And so you look for the guy that's gonna do the least damage. They would be lining up to grab me because I'm so nonphysical, but that was the mistake I made. And I changed the arc of my career completely. And I had always wanted to be a big time sports writer.
Mike Ulmer (5m 36s):
And I, I, I had made that, but what I didn't know was that I was, I had bipolar illness. And so at that moment where I had reached kind of the height of it was the moment that I kind of brought it all down. And there was that great incident, great line from Denzel Washington to will Smith after he slapped Chris rock. And he said at the moment of your greatest height, that's when the devil comes for you. And I, that line resonated so much with me, cuz that was it. I was absolutely at the apex of a career that I've been building for 25 years. And that moment I just blew it up. But the call of that is that was the moment that I realized I needed help.
Mike Ulmer (6m 21s):
And since that time, 20 years ago, yeah, 20 years ago, I've lived a much better life because of medication and meditation and all these things I needed that terrible event to sort of, to sort of wow, send me the right way. So that was my biggest mistake.
Mark Graban (6m 37s):
Wow. And, you know, a, a, a, a biggest mistake versus a favorite mistake. I mean, you know, here on the podcast, a favorite mistake is a favorite mistake is something we, we, we learn from or, or opens doors and, and, and sometimes an unexpected way. I mean, sometimes a favorite mistake can be a biggest mistake. Not, it's not always true in, in both directions. There
Mike Ulmer (6m 58s):
That's a great distinction,
Mark Graban (6m 60s):
But I, I mean, I, I appreciate your reflection on, you know, framing it as something that, that led to getting help and, and led to a better path. You know, if you don't mind me asking, like what, what, what led, what led to the slap? I mean, what, what was the altercation about
Mike Ulmer (7m 16s):
My madness basically led to the slap cuz, and, and, you know, it was just a work quarrel with, with somebody else that I elevated way past common sense. And it was because I had this feeling of grandiosity and entitlement that I thought I could just reach across someone in an airplane no less and, and give him a cuff. And it was just an ordinary work thing. And, you know, people say to me, you know, I'll describe it and they'll say, you know, well, you were, you were entitled to do that.
Mike Ulmer (7m 57s):
You know, he was a bad guy or whatever. Well, he, wasn't a bad guy in particular first and second, there is no entitlement that comes, that allows you to lay your hands on another human being there isn't, there just isn't, there's nothing that guy could say or do that would warrant me, slapping him, especially in a work context. So it was just a, it was just a, a, a beef about work and, and nothing personal past that.
Mark Graban (8m 24s):
I mean, not that it justified what Will Smith did, but while we're talking about slaps, it's not like, it's not like the guy told a joke about your wife or insulted you or, or, or something. It was just,
Mike Ulmer (8m 35s):
No, yeah. It was just a clash of egos, you know, except for mine was running outta control because I wasn't right. I wasn't well, and so that's, and so the result of it was like, I got arrested. I had to go to court. I spent 5,000 bucks on a lawyer, the arc of I never traveled again. I was going to Super Wowls and the Olympics, I never traveled again because, and quite justifiably the company, didn't, wouldn't be sure that something terrible wouldn't happen. And I, I did the same thing. I would've done the same thing they did that meant that the best part of the job for me traveling and go to all these places and riding these great events was gone. And so, and so my tenure at the paper for the rest of the time wasn't as satisfying.
Mike Ulmer (9m 19s):
And even as I got better, you know, it just, it was just never the same. So the rest of my career worked out great. I ended up going to maple league sports and entertainment. They were wonderful. And now I have people with the writing and I love that, but it wasn't in fact, my favorite mistake, but it was, it was a cataclysmic mistake. Mm.
Mark Graban (9m 40s):
I mean, it sounds like, I mean, this is, this is me guessing here or not. I mean, but you know, it's interesting that you frame it in terms of, you know, that, that episode, that incident led to you getting help, you know, may I, I don't know if that, have you ever thought or reflected, like if that hadn't happened, something else might have happened that would've been more, more derailing. I mean, that's a hypothetical
Mike Ulmer (10m 4s):
I realize. Yeah. I suppose. Well, it's funny, you know, a lot of times when people have bipolar illness, it manifests itself in, in, in ways like infidelity, gambling, rash, rash spending, and stuff like that. None of that stuff was really big for me, but I think you're dead on. If it, it hadn't come there, it would've come in another way that was perhaps even more damaging because man, I was burning, I was burning. I had a certainty about what I was doing, that, that looking back on, it was just nuts. You know, some of my work was incomprehensible.
Mike Ulmer (10m 47s):
You know, some of it was really good. Some of that's
Mark Graban (10m 50s):
Really editor helps here. Here's a genius column versus, Hey, let's go back to the drawing board.
Mike Ulmer (10m 57s):
Yeah. Some of them were, yeah. Some, but I wasn't, some of them were really good and some of them were really bad, but the problem was, I thought they were all really good. Yeah. So I look at some of them and I go, what the hell was I writing? But others, because it gave you, there were no filters. There was, and there was a certain recklessness. Now, sometimes it, they came out kind of mean spirited, but some looking back at some of that work ITM, which really, which made me wonder how many times people have written in an altered consciousness and produced great work.
Mark Graban (11m 30s):
Yeah. You, you, you used the word grandiosity or are, are there two sides of a coin to say, and I I'll reflect on this as a writer or somebody who, you know, speaks and shares ideas. Is there a certain level of that required say I've got ideas that I have to share with people and they need to read them that, that I guess maybe at some point then goes a little bit too far to become a
Mike Ulmer (11m 55s):
Detriment. Yeah, no, that's it. The other night I was at Casablanca, they had a screening and a big on the big screen. Now Casablanca has only one regrettable element. And that's the treatment of the only African American character in the movie, Sam, which, which is dreadful. But the rest of the movie is absolutely perfect. And as I left the movie, I wanted to converse without talking to other people about how great this movie was. So I stood at the door and held the door open. And I said to people as they went by, wasn't that a great movie? And they said, yeah, it was great. And I, the next person came by. It was great. When I think something is great. I have a compulsion to share it. When I have a great story, I have to share it.
Mike Ulmer (12m 37s):
It's not like it's a, and my family has always known that when I was a little kid, I was five years old. My sister got an umbrella for her birthday. And we were, we happened to be in the car, driving by, was, she was walking down the, the street and I rolled down the window and said, it's an umbrella. It's an umbrella. It's still code in my family for the fact that I can't stop myself. Right. So that was always there, but it was the, it was the absolute thinking that whatever I did was, I just couldn't understand why no one else got it. I just thought that I was the only person seemingly the only person that had this absolute clarity of what I was doing.
Mike Ulmer (13m 24s):
And of course, and I think anyone can do this when you have no restraint, you're just gonna keep on, drifting out, drifting out, drifting out until your actions are unfathomable to other people. And that's where I was.
Mark Graban (13m 39s):
Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting, you know, the, you, you, you didn't get fired that you, you know, you got this travel ban yeah. Was, was, was, was some of that, a matter of the organization, maybe showing you some grace of realizing or you discovering and them discovering that you were battling bipolar disorder and let's, let's give Mike a second chance, but kind of keep him on a, if you will, a tighter leash.
Mike Ulmer (14m 5s):
No, it wasn't like that at all. They, they, it, the guy that, that I was involved with left the paper, I was new at the paper. And there had been some tumultuous times just before that the guy who hired me got fired. And so maybe they realized that, that I needed, I needed help and that they made it available to me. But even then 20 years ago, there wasn't a recognition at all on their partner. Or could I have expected one because no one really knew what was going on. And that kind of goes to, to the nature of depression, because the average time it takes for someone to be diagnosed with bipolar disorder is about 10 years.
Mike Ulmer (14m 45s):
You don't go to the doctor when you feel great. You go to the doctor when you feel poorly. And so as a result, the doctor gives you antidepressants. And I make the analogy of a balloon, right. Instead of sort of letting a little air out of the balloon, they fill a balloon up with air. That's what the medication does. And so all of a sudden, the balloon just flies around and then hits the ground empty. It's, it's natural to think that you need to pump up the balloon when the person presents themselves in a depressed state. But in fact, that's the worst thing that can happen. You have to have a very, a course of treatment that really addresses that bipolar illness, if not, then you it's things spiral. And that's what happened with me.
Mark Graban (15m 24s):
Yeah. And you wrote in, in your book, yeah. It wasn't even so much a mistake, but maybe it was just at, at the frontier of medical knowledge of what we didn't know then versus what we know now, like maybe now it would be a mistake or how do you prevent the mistake? You know, it might be a question for the clinicians out there. How do you prevent that mistake? Based on today's knowledge, I wonder, you know, have they gotten better at diagnosing bipolar or once that diagnosis is known, maybe they're, they're, they're more consistent in what to prescribe or what not to prescribe?
Mike Ulmer (15m 60s):
Well, the only thing was is that what I was giving them to diagnose me was only the sad part. Right. So, very difficult to, for someone to Intuit that other part, because you only present when you're sad and so very, very difficult. Although, so when I finally got, when I was finally diagnosed correctly, I came back to my wife and I was quite flux because no one who's bipolar thinks they're bipolar until someone says, dude, you're bipolar. And then
Mark Graban (16m 26s):
Cause they're, they're seeing both the, the ups and the downs, the, the that's or the depression. Yeah.
Mike Ulmer (16m 33s):
So I came back to my wife and I said, they said, I'm bipolar. And she went, no, yes. Yeah.
Mark Graban (16m 43s):
Yeah. One other question, you know, before moving on some other topics, you know, when, when, when this happened, you know, one, one thing I think, you know, it's interesting to think through, you know, is, is showing some grace to yourself when a mistake happens. Like, you know, in this situation here, you know, you can't undo a slap, curious, you know, kind of your thoughts in terms of like only if you will forgiving yourself or kind of processing that and, and moving on.
Mike Ulmer (17m 14s):
Well, it's really, that's really such a great question because when we think about our favorite mistake, we naturally think of it's my favorite mistake, right? So we naturally think about our ramifications, but what's hard to do is to think about the ramifications about the other person on the other end of that, because, you know, you've done that person damage and you can, you can do your best when you recover to try to fix that. But really that person is under no obligation to accept your, the fact that you're sorry. And so the challenge, and I think that's such an astute question. The challenge is then to, to reach a piece with that because you can't make amends, you know, the great thing about, about one of the things about Catholicism is that you say it's hail Marys and, and your square, right?
Mike Ulmer (18m 7s):
You say you confess to the priest, you see your three Hail Marys, and we're good. Absolution is a great thing to grant, but in its absence, when you don't receive absolution, that sets up another dynamic of how do you, how to give yourself absolution. I'm not sure we can absolve ourselves completely. And I, I think that's a good thing because that little bit of regret should exist because that, that of course is your alarm bell for when you're, when you're acting out again. But my regret isn't necessarily what I did, although way I regret it. My regret is that I can't make it. Right. And that's, I altered the course of somebody else's life.
Mike Ulmer (18m 49s):
That's a little tougher to live with. Yeah.
Mark Graban (18m 52s):
Yeah. Did you, did you, you said that person, that you slapped, left the paper, did you ever cross pass again?
Mike Ulmer (18m 59s):
Just yeah. On the periphery, but yeah, completely within his, his, his rights, he had no interest in engaging me. Sure, sure. And I get it. I was, I haven't really talked about this on a podcast much just because I wouldn't wanna bring that person back into my story. Sure. I think podcasts are, are, there's so many good ones that hopefully this, I, I actually don't want this to reach em, because I don't wanna brag him, but I think it's instructive. I think the greater good is that it's instructive for people to know that, that you can kind of come back and from the, from these incidents.
Mark Graban (19m 32s):
Yeah. Well thank you for, for sharing the story and, and, and the reflection and, and, and, you know, some, some glimpse into a path for, you know, being healthier and being in a better place. So it's certainly good to hear that part of the story as
Mike Ulmer (19m 47s):
Well. Yeah. Thank you. It's it's, it's it's I still have a wide range of, of emotions, you know, but I'm just, just the guy next door now, but oh man, I burn bright and the, just to put a close on it, a lot of people don't want to be medicated because, you know, imagine a life where you're sure about everything, where everything you do in your own mind is justified. I mean, who wouldn't want that? Where your, where your mind is racing to conclusions. Many of them really great conclusions, you know, where you're every step you take, you, you are walking like a giant, that's a very seductive thing.
Mike Ulmer (20m 35s):
And so a lot of people, I think don't want to go back and, and take the shrinking pill and go, go, go back to being like everybody else. So it's, it's a very enticing prospect and a lot of people don't wanna go back until they really mess it up. And then they have to have a, a real accounting. And, and so it's a very powerful allure.
Mark Graban (21m 0s):
Well, again, thank you for gosh. That's well said, and thank you for, you know, the, the reflections and, and the story. Like one other question I wanna ask you before, you know, talking about books and publishing this, this was something you talked about in your book and maybe thinking as a, a writer or thinking about words and language, and, and as, as you being cancer survivor, why, why, why do you say it's a mistake to use the phrase, you know, battle with cancer. I, that was an interesting point.
Mike Ulmer (21m 30s):
Thank you for asking that that's so great cancer, like many things is mythologized as a battle and I've had cancer. I don't recommend it, but, but if it's a battle, then when you die, you lose, right. I mean, we say he lost his battle to cancer. We used the verb lose. Right? You didn't lose your, nor McDonald's said it best. I had the cancer, the cancer killed me. That's a draw. The cancer died too.
Mark Graban (22m 3s):
Yeah. Rest, rest in peace norm. Yeah.
Mike Ulmer (22m 5s):
Yeah. That's what a brilliant observation, because what we're saying is that people that didn't didn't didn't survive, died and, and we all died. It, that was just their time. People say you beat cancer. I didn't beat cancer. It, I, I took the measures to that, that, that didn't allow it to live. And anyone would take those measures. There wasn't any great courage in beating cancer anymore than there was any great weakness in, in, in dying and, and losing to it. We have to make that analogy. And I just don't understand why I see it all the time. I think it's a discredit to the people who pass it was their time. That's it?
Mark Graban (22m 45s):
Yeah. It's it's, I mean, it's, it's interesting to think about it's. I think, well intended of like, you know, they, they good for them,
Mike Ulmer (22m 52s):
The good fight,
Mark Graban (22m 52s):
Brave. They fought the good fight, but then like you said, yeah, losing a battle. It almost implies of what they, well, they didn't, they didn't fight hard enough. I mean, that that's insulting then. Right.
Mike Ulmer (23m 3s):
That's so I think, I couldn't agree. I wish I'd worded it that well. You're absolutely right.
Mark Graban (23m 8s):
Yeah. But that's interesting point to, to think and, and, and, and reflect about there. So wanna ask about, you know, your experience writing and, and publishing and helping people write, you know, you, before we talk maybe about, you know, possible book, writing mistakes, you know, you, you, you pretty strongly, I, I jotted this down here of, of, you know, answering this question. Why should people write a business book? And, and, and you say pretty directly, everyone should. So I'd be curious to hear your, your thought, your thoughts on that.
Mike Ulmer (23m 44s):
Well, thanks. It's I just think it's, it's, it's a fantastic vehicle. Maybe not for the reason that you think it is, obviously in a sort of when we're all our own marketing companies to have a book, there's listen to write a book generates more, not necessarily warranted esteem than anything else I could imagine, except for being a scratch golfer. I mean, I've been dining out on this for years and years and years, about how, when you write a book, people think you're really, really smart. People will tell me that, that, that, that just a book is like a checkup. When someone sees that you've written a book, they haven't even read the book.
Mike Ulmer (24m 25s):
They go, oh, you've written a book. Well, you must be an authority then. So just having done that, there's so many great things about writing a book. It's, it's sort of the central wheel for your, for your media. You can make money doing it, which is great. If you wanna speaking career it's, it's almost essential to, to have a book. It's a it's. If you don't have a book that I think they would look at, you will scan. So that's really, really important. And the really great thing, if you write a write a great book is that you can find that story. You have to tell every day for the rest of your life, I call it the proposition. And it's like, it's like the four hour work week. It's a great idea that sort of, when you walk by the book story, sort of twist your head around, you gotta see it's based really on your own experiences.
Mike Ulmer (25m 10s):
So everyone's proposition is different, but it's a piece of information of wisdom that has great value and utility for the person that, that you're helping. So when, when, whenever the business is, if you find that great, great piece of information that can really help them. And if I could give you an example, so let's say that you are, you help people plan their estates. And, and you've seen people come in time after time, after time. And all they care about is denying the government, their inheritance tax they'll have anyone else implement the will. They'll give people their property. They, all they care about is the fact that the government doesn't get their money. And the result of that is great, great destruction in families, because people are, they don't understand why other people were chosen to administer the will.
Mike Ulmer (25m 59s):
They don't understand why someone got a better inheritance. The money always comes. If there's a cottage or a property that people have emotional value to, it's just Azo. And it does so much damage, but the truth is less than 1% of inheritance create an inheritance tax. So the saying is that people are destroying their family about they're, they're not applicable, right? They're destroying their families for nothing. So if you were as someone in the, in this business, that piece of knowledge, which sort of goes against the grain, most people are worried about that. Very thing. That's a super piece of, of, of knowledge. So if you wrote a book that said, don't ruin your life for an inheritance tax, that you're not gonna pay, right.
Mike Ulmer (26m 44s):
And you can call it whatever you wanted, but that's a terrific message. So it takes a long time to sort of dig and find that message. Sometimes it just takes 10 minutes. Sometimes it takes a long time. So I had a, I did a book with a friend mark Pepo called the 50 year old millennial, which you referenced. It was three hours into our conversation. When mark said, you know, we're talking about millennials, which really fashionable to dump on millennials. And he said, they're right. Everything they say is right. They deserve what they want. They deserve to be, have a transparent management track. They deserve regular feedback. They deserve to have access to people, making the decision.
Mark Graban (27m 22s):
I, I totally agree the things that are often ascribed to millennials. I think, well, I, I know older other generations that want those same things, but maybe they've gotten beaten down and they, they don't ask for it anymore.
Mike Ulmer (27m 33s):
That's exactly right. Mark people don't ask for it anymore. And, and he said, that's what he said. And he said, yeah. And I said, well, you're like a 50 year old millennial.
Mark Graban (27m 42s):
There it is.
Mike Ulmer (27m 43s):
There it is. That was three hours into our conversation. So in, in Mark's case, we knew he wanted to attack it from a point of servant leadership. He that's what he believes in, but we realized that, that in fact, his model for servant leadership was perfectly suited to attracting and retaining millennial talent who are now in the prime years of their, their creativity and productivity. So we didn't know the book until that moment. And then the rest of it was detail. So yeah, there's that exploration, that's so important to find that one thing, that one hook, and then after that, it's just, just fun.
Mark Graban (28m 18s):
Yeah. Well, you're, you're, you're speaking to, I think the power of partnering up with, with somebody or with people we often think of writing as this very solitary it's in my head, or I've done research and it's my fingers on the keyboard. And I think it goes to show there, there are many ways to bring a book into existence if someone says, but, but Mike, I'm not a writer. Yeah. That's not, that's not an unsurpassable barrier, right?
Mike Ulmer (28m 46s):
No, there's a couple things when people say I'm not a writer. Well, I, I, wasn't a swimmer until I learned. Yeah. Imagine you're a baby. And the baby says, ah, gets up and tries a walking and falls down. The baby goes, well, I guess that's it for the walking thing. Right,
Mark Graban (29m 0s):
Right,
Mike Ulmer (29m 1s):
Right. We can learn, we can adapt skills. Now I do think that having someone help you find that story, walk you through, look at your, your history and look at the point that brought you to that conclusion. Cuz the second part of it, once you have that hook, the second part of it, Mark is to be able to sort of look at my history and be able to show the person what brought you to that point. And so the backstory and the backstory is, is, is great because if I told you mark, I, I just thought of this 10 seconds ago. If I told you mark, it took me 10 years to figure this out. But now I know you would be more inclined to believe me. The, the conclusion that came after 10 years in 10 seconds.
Mike Ulmer (29m 40s):
So showing the reader, the journey to that conclusion establishes credibility to you for you. That's really essential to the book as well. And then the third element of the book is just tips. Just all sorts of tips. In this case we talked about earlier would be tax tips. So it's those three elements. You can write your book and that's great. But I think it, we, you know, I, if I have an appendectomy, I'd rather have someone help me with it,
Mark Graban (30m 7s):
Right. I'm not gonna read. I mean, I'm not gonna read a book about how to do your own appendectomy,
Mike Ulmer (30m 13s):
To have someone look at your life. And because a lot of times the things aren't really pleasant. I did the book, the 40, 40 ways of the Fox. I turned to Ron. I said, why don't you drink? And he said, because my dad drank and he beat me. And I said, well, why did he beat you? And he, and he said, well, cuz he was a man who, who said a lot of things. He said would've could've should've. And I, I vowed that I would never drink and that I would never utter those words again, Ron, this is Ron Fox crouch who I'm speaking to who is that book there? 40 ways of wait,
Mark Graban (30m 47s):
Hold it, hold it back up again. Was that
Mike Ulmer (30m 49s):
Sure.
Mark Graban (30m 51s):
Okay. I was gonna say actually a hockey referee or
Mike Ulmer (30m 55s):
No, he is a basketball referee. Who's Fox 40 whistle. Yep. Okay. And so that piercing whistle that's that, that, that he would be your favorite mistake because he discovered that he blew the whistle in a, in an Olympic pre tournament game in Brazil and it didn't work. And, and he said, if I ever survived this, I'm gonna build a better whistle. Wow. And he did. Wow. That, that was his favorite mistake and oh, you're ready. Good.
Mark Graban (31m 24s):
I, I may ask for an instruction there.
Mike Ulmer (31m 26s):
So I would gladly do that.
Mark Graban (31m 29s):
So that sounds like a good story, but sorry, go ahead.
Mike Ulmer (31m 32s):
So Ron, doesn't talk about his alcoholic father to, to people. And, but if you know, Ron, he's always been running both towards and away from his dad. And, and I didn't discover that until that, that moment. And so having someone interview you, sometimes you create a truth that you wouldn't otherwise volunteer. And so that's really the power of it because most people that read that book say, geez, Ron, my dad drank too. I, I, I get you. I understand you in a way I couldn't before. So that gives you a credibility in the power. What we do is, is we have sort of one service is that we, I just, we, I hope we find that hook. I just, we talk until it takes an hour, maybe three hours, we find that hook and that's, I call it, find your brand for a grant.
Mike Ulmer (32m 18s):
Yeah. And we do that. And then we have other services where we can give, help you lay out the book, you can do it yourself. And then we have another service where you give us three or four hours. That's the book.
Mark Graban (32m 29s):
Yeah. Wow. The, the thing about credibility boosting you're you're right. I end up, you know, friends of mine who are consultants and, and, and they do speaking and they want to do more. The conversation almost always comes back to, so are you writing a book? Yes. I think there's an interesting mistake that happens sometimes though is assuming that the author will also be a good speaker. Like those, those are almost mutually exclusive skill sets or it, it, I wouldn't assume the ability to, to write or create a book always means that they're a good speaker.
Mark Graban (33m 9s):
Like they, they, they may have good things to say that maybe just aren't they like, they may, they maybe need a speaking coach if they just don't deliver that message. Well, verbally, but that's the, those are things like you said about swimming or learning to walk. I mean, so I, somebody I've had a speaking coach, I think I'm reasonably okay at it, but it's a skill. Maybe it's a mistake of, of somebody not investing enough in becoming a better speaker. I
Mike Ulmer (33m 35s):
Dunno. Well, of course, as you know, there's two elements to speaking, there's a presentation. And then there's the, the, and then there's the actual message. I can't do much for the, for the presentation, but the real benefit of, I always, I always say this, the real benefit of a book is, is I'm giving you the book for free. I'm bringing you to the conclusion. That's why you pay me athletes. A hockey player will say, Hey, man, I play for free. You pay me to practice. That's good. Or I'm giving you the book for free. The real value is in the conclusion. And so, you know, if you wrote the book you meant to write, you wrote the wrong book, the process of writing, I
Mark Graban (34m 21s):
Can see you process, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike Ulmer (34m 23s):
Yeah. The process of working with someone and writing the book is that it's, it's, you have to go past what you know, into what you think and what you remember and what you feel and what you think, you know, and what you don't know, what you don't know. And so the, the conclusion, because you're tested, you know, I'm asking you questions, so you're tested. And so the result is you find that story. That's really great. You find that hook. That's really great. And then you adapt that to your speech. So in terms of someone looking to, to create a mess, craft a message for their speech, I think the process that we do is really useful, but in terms of speaking in front of people, that's where your speaking coach really comes through.
Mark Graban (35m 10s):
Sure, sure. One other question I wanted ask we, when we talked previously, you brought up early interesting idea that it might be a mistake or it is a mistake to write with your audience in mind. That's like, that seems like a thoughtful thing to do as the writer, I wanna think about my audience and what are they going to take away from it and what can they do? And I'm writing with the audience in mind. Tell, tell us more about your view on that.
Mike Ulmer (35m 35s):
Well, I, there's sort of two, two streams to that. Every word that you write as an author has to be done in consideration of the reader. Every decision you make has to be done for their convenience. They're putting down every single thing they have going in the world, all their cares, all their concerns to give you their undivided attention. And that's a privilege. So you have to take really, really seriously. And that factors into what your book looks like, whether they're sidebars, how easy you make it, how much I, I was given a book, it had four, 2000 words. It now has 20. It's better. I can believe every element, you know, powerful verbs, every element has to be done in consideration of the reader.
Mike Ulmer (36m 20s):
But it your message. If it's, if it's skewed to please the reader, it's, it's your journey, right? It doesn't have anything to do with them at the end of the journey. Hopefully you have something you can bring to them. But to write a book with the, with the, with the audience in mind is to patronize them.
Mark Graban (36m 41s):
Mm, okay. Yeah.
Mike Ulmer (36m 43s):
You have to come with your conclusion and your conclusion is so strong that it benefits them. You don't wanna write a book that doesn't benefit the people you wanna to, to, to read it. But if you write a book, always with the intention of pleasing who will read it, then you're not doing either one of any good.
Mark Graban (36m 59s):
So yeah. So that, thank you. That's, that's a much more subtle, better articulation than what I had jotted down from our previous conversation. So yeah, it didn't mean to misrepresent. It would be a mistake to say, Mike is saying, don't think about your reader, cuz that's clearly not what you're saying and not what you mean, but, but don't go overboard and focusing only on the reader, there's gotta be some self, some sense of self in, in, in saying, well here, I'm curious your thoughts on this. Like here's what I feel compelled to write. Whether anybody else likes it or not. There's some element of that required.
Mike Ulmer (37m 35s):
Yeah. Because you have to take a contrarian stance. You know, the four hour work week is a contrarian stance. 4,000 weeks. The time management for mortals is a contrarian stance. You know, you have to be willing to say to the people who wanna buy your book, we're doing this wrong and this is the best way. But if you're always worried about pleasing your reader, then you're gonna end up saying, you know, dude, you're doing everything right. And then how can you help?
Mark Graban (38m 3s):
S great point, great point, Mike, I ask a question or two about publishing. And again, our guest is Mike Ulmer. His website is get catapulted.com to go learn more about him. You know, in, as let's say, somebody is thinking of writing a book and they're trying to figure out how to do it nowadays. There are many avenues open. It. It's not the old days of finding, you know, having to find a publisher. Yeah. And going through that proposal or having a agent and shopping it around are many approaches to self-publishing. And I don't even like the term self-publishing, it's more of like, you know, self-directed publishing with yes,
Mike Ulmer (38m 44s):
Great
Mark Graban (38m 44s):
Professionals anymore than I would self operate as back back to your, your point about that self-publishing can be just as professional as a traditional publisher. But, but, but that said there are mistakes. Sometimes that people make of falling into a partnership with somebody who's, who's more predatory than, than, well, just not more predatory is predatory. How, how does somebody look out for that and, and make sure they're, they're partnering with somebody who, you know, let's say doesn't become an unnecessary middle man in some of the, the selling of the book.
Mike Ulmer (39m 23s):
Well, I think there's two things to worry about. There are people who will say, they're helping you write your book, but they'll charge you by the, by the month. And writing a book is hard. I put mine off all the time. You're gonna have some periods where you're just not up to it. And so look, the meter is still running. So what they want is for you to be, you know, stalled because then they can charge you more and more and more. So there's writing services that are sort of where their profit motive is not to have you finish the book. There's writing services where they won't tell you the hard truths. And, and that, that you're not bringing anything to the table that you're not being vulnerable enough.
Mike Ulmer (40m 4s):
It's hard to say to someone who's paying you, you're not giving me enough. You know, that's hard. And, and so, and there are people that are just not terribly qualified to do it either. So there's sort of that, that corner. But the other corner is that people that only wanna talk about the marketing, just the marketing and specifically people that wanna game the algorithm and make you, you know, a best seller. When I see the word bestseller, I automatically think bullshit, you know, because it's really easy to be. It's, it's an, it's a, there is no standard for best seller, right? If you're in the category of lefthanded, knitting books with red thread and you've sold three and the only other person who sold one, you're the best seller in that category.
Mike Ulmer (40m 52s):
Congratulations.
Mark Graban (40m 53s):
Right. Or maybe the best seller of that category of books at Amazon dot Estonia or something. Right.
Mike Ulmer (40m 60s):
Actually good call
Mark Graban (41m 2s):
Then I'm, I'm an, I'm an international best seller,
Mike Ulmer (41m 4s):
That's it? You're, you're big. So you get a screen capture and all of a sudden you're the bestseller. There is no number for bestsellers. A anyone who tells you, they can make you a bestseller without knowing your book is lying to you. Well, they're not lying to you. They can actually do it, but it's, it's, they're selling you something that's completely invalid. I had someone tell me, I can, you know, write a book in a day and I can make that a best seller really a day. You know, it doesn't work that way. Right.
Mark Graban (41m 33s):
And you know, I, I, in, in your bio, there's a difference between saying best selling as a broad category. Like I've had friends in the distilling business industry. There, there are words like craft, craft whiskey has no legal definition. No, it's just a word,
Mike Ulmer (41m 52s):
Natural
Mark Graban (41m 52s):
And best seller, unless someone can really be specific. So in your bio, you give the sales number and it's, it's the best selling alphabet book now in, in Canadian publishing history. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm believing you, I'm taking that at face value, but that's a specific enough claim. I mean, it's, it's the old joke of like, well, the lie is really specific. It becomes more believable, but no, I mean, but you've got some data and credibility to this, this statement, or it gets to the point of like, well, if every book is a best seller, then, then none of them are.
Mike Ulmer (42m 24s):
Yeah, that's it. I see it all the time. Best selling author. Oh man. I, I would advise anyone who's who, who a, has paid for this to take it down, man. And, and here's the thing, here's the problem with it. If you concentrate on the marketing of the book exclusively, then, then the book, won't the book, won't be a good book. Write a good book. That's it. Just write a good book. The rest of it will take care of itself. You'll get great reviews. You'll get word of mouth. One person saying to another, I love this book is far more important than, than any crazy bot best seller element, write a great book and everything else will take care of itself, but write with vulnerability and offer the reader something tangible and have a great backstory and lots of advice.
Mark Graban (43m 14s):
That's great advice to end this on Mike, thank you for your willingness to be vulnerable in, in telling your story of your favorite mistake and the reflections and, and move moving forward from that. So I, I really do appreciate that. And you know, if you wanna write a great book, you know, Mike is somebody who can help you with that. You can learn more about his services@getcatapulted.com. Again, his most recent book, which I've, I've started reading and I've I've purchased, and I'm gonna continue reading.
Mike Ulmer (43m 45s):
I bless you. My son
Mark Graban (43m 46s):
Bless, bless you. As I'm going through a journey, writing a book about lessons learned from this podcast here, his book is show and tell, writing a great short business book about how to write a great short business book. And maybe someday you can write a book about how to write a book, to help people write a book.
Mike Ulmer (44m 3s):
That's right. You know, it's very meta, very
Mark Graban (44m 5s):
Meta, very meta cause there are a lot of books out there about how to write a book. There are podcasts about how to do a podcast. There's, there's something certainly helpful and useful there from what I've seen. So
Mike Ulmer (44m 17s):
Are there any marketers that don't market to other people learning how to market like the, the business of marketers showing non marketers, how to market seems to be marketing?
Mark Graban (44m 30s):
Sure. And I'm, I'm, I'm sure that does exist, but there's bring maybe, you know, bring it back to, we we'd done all the sports talk. There was somebody who lived down the street from me. Oh my gosh. He was, he, he, he wasn't the player, but he ran a hitting academy in baseball academy that was affiliated. And it was named at Bernie Carbo.
Mike Ulmer (44m 56s):
Oh, Bernie hit the big home run for the red Sox. Yes. Yeah. Bernie Carbo.
Mark Graban (44m 60s):
It was. And, and so I think, you know, the guy who lived down the street, he was the father of a classmate. I think he'd played minor league baseball, but you know, I think there's something to be said for like, I think he was smart to call it the Bernie carbo school, because you want to learn from somebody.
Mike Ulmer (45m 13s):
Yeah.
Mark Graban (45m 14s):
Who'd been there done that at the highest levels that may or may not be true with a book coach. So that's, that's maybe something to look out for or think about as well.
Mike Ulmer (45m 25s):
Yeah. It's, it's true. Are there a lot of book coaches out there mark? Because, because I haven't made, there are.
Mark Graban (45m 32s):
Yeah. Yeah. I think there are, there are a lot of coaches these days for like, as you said, people offering services to help I've, I've used book coaches and I've used people there there's an important role to play. Yeah. But I, I think as with anything, their past accomplishments in your relationship with them, your fit in connection with them matter a lot, because I'm sure Bernie carbo wasn't the right hitting coach for every baseball
Mike Ulmer (45m 55s):
Player. No, of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've, I, I, I've done some research on that and I've, I I've found some, but I'm, I'm glad you told me that. I didn't know there was that kind of a volume of them out there.
Mark Graban (46m 6s):
Yeah. Food for thought. So maybe there's a book to be written about how to choose the book coach that's right. For you.
Mike Ulmer (46m 13s):
How to choose the book coach who chose you, how to write the book about how to write the book.
Mark Graban (46m 19s):
We we'll we'll we'll, we'll keep working on that. Mike, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you earlier for the baseball talk and, and, and that, that would've been fun to record for a different audience. And maybe we can do that again, someday
Mike Ulmer (46m 32s):
People concern. And from what, what's your hometown in Michigan
Mark Graban (46m 35s):
Livonia, Michigan
Mike Ulmer (46m 36s):
Livonia, of course. Livonia. Michigan. Yes.
Mark Graban (46m 39s):
Yeah. Not too far across from the crossing into Windsor, Ontario, but again, Mike Ulmer, has been our guest today. It's been great fun, I think really meaningful episode. So thank you for that.
Mike Ulmer (46m 50s):
Thank you for having me. I sure appreciate it, Mark.
Mark Graban (46m 53s):
Thanks again to Mike Ulmer for being such an interesting guest today and for sharing his story, to learn more about him, his books and his work and more look for links in the show notes, or go to markgraban.com/mistake17,6. As always. I wanna thank you for listening. I hope this podcast inspires you to reflect on your own mistakes, how you can learn from them or turn them into a positive I've had listeners tell me they started being more open and honest about mistakes in their work. And they're trying to create a workplace culture where it's safe to speak up about problems because that leads to more improvement and better business results. If you have feedback or a story to share, you can email me my favoritemistakepodcast@gmail.com.
Mark Graban (47m 35s):
And again, our website is myfavoritemistakepodcast.com.