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My guest for Episode #271 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Andrew Davis, Chief Product Officer at AutoRABIT and the author of Mastering Salesforce DevOps. He's also co-author of the new book Flow Engineering: From Value Stream Mapping to Effective Action – with Steve Pereira.
He’s a Salesforce architect, developer, and product leader who focuses on the human side of software development. He’s been the leading figure in introducing DevOps concepts to the Salesforce world.
Trained as an engineer, he spent fifteen years as a Buddhist monk, teaching meditation and personal transformation and helping develop communities of practice. These days he studies the intersection of business, technology, and psychology through systems thinking.
In this episode, Andrew shares his fascinating journey from being a Buddhist monk to becoming a leader in the tech world. He discusses his favorite mistake of experiencing burnout as a monk, the lessons learned, and how these experiences have shaped his approach to work and life. Andrew discusses the concepts of flow engineering, psychological safety, and the importance of creating an environment where people feel safe to speak up and innovate. Join us for an insightful conversation that bridges the worlds of spirituality and technology, offering valuable lessons for anyone striving to balance passion with well-being.
Questions and Topics:
- How do you guard against repeating a similar path to burnout in your current work?
- How did you choose to become a Buddhist and then a monk?
- How did you transition from being a monk to getting into the software and technology world?
- Companies can be crazy; how do we help avoid that?
- What are your thoughts on value stream mapping and breaking down silos?
- Why did you emphasize psychological safety in your book, and what have you learned about it?
- How do you offer free classes on personal transformation, and can you tell us about that?
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- Full transcript
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Automated Transcript (May Contain Mistakes)
Mark Graban:
Hi, welcome to my favorite mistake. I'm your host Mark Graban. Our guest today is Andrew Davis. He is the chief product officer at AutoRABIT and he's author previously of the book mastering Salesforce DevOps. He's also co author of a new book written with Steve Pereira titled Flow Engineering: From Value Stream Mapping to Effective Action.
Mark Graban:
Steve's also going to do an episode of my favorite mistake, so we'll get the both of them separately and talk about their book and other things. So Andrew is a Salesforce architect, developer and product leader with a focus on the human side of software development. He's been the leading figure in introducing DevOps concepts to the salesforce world. And this is interesting. Trained as an engineer, Andrew spent 15 years as a Buddhist monk teaching meditation and personal transformation and helping develop communities of practice.
Mark Graban:
Now he studies the intersection of business, technology and psychology through systems thinking. So Andrew, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Andrew Davis:
I'm doing great. That's a mouthful, mark, thanks so much for having me.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, I don't think I sometimes hit a speed bump with certain words. I think I got that through that one without any mistakes and all factually correct, even if embarrassing to hear the long intro.
Andrew Davis:
You nailed it. But yes.
Mark Graban:
So there's a lot to talk about here today between the book and you've got a unique background. We've had a couple of other guests on the podcast before who were also previously Buddhist monks, and not all of them doing the other work that you're doing today. So anyway, we'll get right into the main question at hand. Um, you know, with the different things you've done in your career, Andrew, what would you say is your favorite mistake?
Andrew Davis:
I, you know, I, I don't often bump into people who are former Buddhist monks, let alone on podcasts. So, yeah, it's a fraternity there that we should meet those folks.
Mark Graban:
Figure I can make some connections. Yeah.
Andrew Davis:
Thank you. You know, when the opportunity to be on the podcast came up, I was contemplating what my favorite mistake was. The one that really came to mind was one that I'd not told in any public forum before. It is the story of how I burned out as a Buddhist monk, and it sounds like a joke.
Andrew Davis:
It sounds like the punchline to a joke or something. And, you know, because it took me a lot of time and reflection, because it's been ten years ago now, I did spend 15 years as a monk, so it's a full-on career. And I had made and continually reiterated, you know, a commitment that this was a lifetime commitment. A lifetime commitment. I'm definitely hanging in there.
Andrew Davis:
So it was utterly determined to. For that to be my identity, you know, throughout my life. And it took a number of. It's been ten years since I stopped being a monk. And it was just maybe a couple of years ago, while I was working on writing this book, flow Engineering with Steve, that I realized that it was burnout, in a sense, and that.
Mark Graban:
We.
Andrew Davis:
We were a part of a Western Buddhist organization. And so everybody who was there was kind of first generation, and everybody was there because they wanted to, nobody was there because their parents dragged them in and so forth. So it was a really beautiful, good-hearted group of people and really committed and really trying to help introduce a dramatically new way of thinking to our world and to our society at a time in our society where, you know, there's all of these existential risks and such a huge need for, you know, different ways of thinking, ways of thinking that are more oriented towards harmony and empathy and compassion, so forth. And so I was utterly committed, but I was so committed that I just would work so much again and again. And our organization, we were spread out over the whole world.
Andrew Davis:
There wasn't a whole lot of network there for mentoring and cross checking and seeing the kinds of and sharing notes on the kinds of mistakes that people were maybe making. What led people to eventually lose that determination to continue remaining a monk or nun? And I realized that to make a commitment like that, to make a lifetime commitment and take vows of celibacy and so forth, you've got to be really feeling that spiritual resonance. There's got to be something that's moving you really, to the depths of your being. To say, I'm going to give up all other things in my life, other opportunities and money and partner and all these kinds of things, to do this, there's something that's moved you deeply to get to that place, but that's not permanent, right?
Andrew Davis:
That sort of feeling of everything's right, and I'm doing exactly what I need to be doing, and I'm rested and energized and inspired and so forth. That's not permanent. And so that can fade or be damaged over time. And I realized that I didn't take enough care of that experience, and I just sort of gave, gave, gave, gave, gave, gave, gave. And it's a huge issue for nonprofits.
Andrew Davis:
And I remember reading research on the burnout rate in nonprofits being just dramatically higher than the rest of the industry. And that's so sad, right? Because people like good hearted trying to do the best work and burning out. And I think the. Yeah, so I would.
Andrew Davis:
Yeah, I think a lack of, you know, an unskillfulness on my part, and there's an arrogance there as well, because I was feeling like I would just. I didn't need to care for my spiritual life. And that, as well, is one of those amazing ironies, right. Training in a tradition that's all about humility and selflessness. But there's the kind of arrogance that's like, I don't need to, you know, take time to rest.
Andrew Davis:
I don't need to, you know, honor, respect these feelings of, you know, I'm working too hard. I'm feeling. And then the failure mode, if you're. If you're a monk or none, the failure mode that typically comes up is loneliness, because you're sort of not getting that normal human sort of soothing connection. And that's fine if you're, like, deeply, spiritually absorbed and you sort of transcended loneliness.
Andrew Davis:
But chinks in the arm or the cracks start appearing, and that kicks up. And so I. So I got into a relationship and crashed and burned as a monk.
Mark Graban:
And are you blaming the relationship or that was just also happening or is all interconnected?
Andrew Davis:
Well, I mean, that is like, to get into a relationship is the end of your life as a monk or nun. So they're related. But, I mean, it was my favorite mistake for all kinds of reasons, just because it unlocked a totally new chapter in my life. And learning how to be in a relationship and learning how to be a good, you know, partner and good in that that world was. Was really helpful.
Andrew Davis:
And. And just, I made a decision at the time, because the thing that did work really in my favor at that time is I had spent 15 years as a monk teaching people that no matter what happens, you can always take it as a lesson. Right. There's something you can learn from that. And so I was presented with this dilemma at that time.
Andrew Davis:
Do I. How should I respond now that I'm no longer a monk? Should I just feel buried under a mountain of shame, like, okay, I failed this lifeline, lifetime commitment, failed monk or something like that? Or do I believe the words that I was saying for all those years, that nothing is so, you know, dire, a failure, that you can't transform it, that you can't learn from it, that you can't use it to make yourself a wiser, better, more compassionate person? Yeah, I just thought.
Andrew Davis:
I honestly believed in those teachings. Those teachings helped me time and time and time and time and time again, when I was a monk, even this most sort of unthinkable mistake that I could have made or, you know. Yeah. Unthinkable mistake that I could have made that cost me to be an outcast from the community that I was in and all these kinds of things, even that can be transformed and should be transformed and needs to be transformed. So that was my determination.
Andrew Davis:
I'm gonna. I used to think about the difference between throwing an egg on the ground and throwing a superball ground. Right? Yeah. My mantra was bounce well, it doesn't matter.
Andrew Davis:
I've been thrown on the ground, whatever. Bounce well. And so that was my favorite mistake.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. It's a really interesting story, and there's probably more we can dig into a little bit there when. I mean, it sounds like. I'm sure it was a struggle. You make this commitment, you want to stick with it, you're committed to it.
Mark Graban:
You're feeling maybe some reasons not to. Was the relationship kind of an exit path? Like, I had another guest recently who. It was more, you know, a different career. Like, wasn't happy with it and was, you know, kind of sticking with it.
Mark Graban:
I think, in hindsight, you know, she said too long, but then there, she found an exit path. Like, okay. Well, there was her reason where it was okay to leave.
Andrew Davis:
I think so. And I think so. And I still feel like there's. It's like, because I was driving so hard, because I noticed those tendencies are still in me.
Mark Graban:
Right.
Andrew Davis:
A bit of workaholic tendency, driving so hard. What happens is there's some part of you that's just craving to, say, relax, rest enough. Right. And. And getting into a relationship was kind of like, you know, you're always so disciplined, just relax.
Andrew Davis:
Right. And what I was really craving was relaxation, which, again, it sounds like a really bad joke, right? The buddhist monk who couldn't relax. Right. But, like, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Davis:
From one level, I was relaxed, but I was always. I was working, right? So what I was really craving was this just peace of just not having worries, not having to think about something. And I and my wife, as she is now, represented that. And we need that.
Andrew Davis:
We need that peace. We need to balance the yang with the yin, so to speak.
Mark Graban:
So when we think about lessons learned, you mentioned workaholic tendencies. How do you guard against repeating a similar path to burnout in the work that you're doing now? Is that past experience helpful? The buddhist teachings, all of that helpful?
Andrew Davis:
It is, because I'm definitely. I mean, my current role has got me moving as hard and as fast as I can to try to keep up with it, and there's lots of pressures and so forth. And I'm away from home a lot as well, right. So the same kind of thing kicks up, like some sense of loneliness, but I feel like recognizing that it was. There's a concept in meditation called mental excitement.
Andrew Davis:
And typically there's a couple of. When you start meditating, there's a couple of things that tend to happen. One is you fall asleep and you get where you get bored or you get dull or whatever. That's mental thinking. The other one, mental excitement, like you're thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, you know, too hard.
Andrew Davis:
That's mental excitement. And both of those are preventing you from actually having that sweet spot of meditation where you're peaceful but not sleepy and not dull. Right. And I recognized that what was going on in my mind was mental excitement because I was trying to. I was taking on so many responsibilities then.
Andrew Davis:
I'm taking on a lot of responsibilities now so that it's easier to go, go, go, think, think. And you always are working, and so you're never giving yourself a chance to just decompress. And, like, I. Most of the things that many people do to decompress, I still don't do, right? Like, no drinking and just watching lots of tv and doing mindless stuff.
Andrew Davis:
I don't choose to take that approach to take my mind off things.
Mark Graban:
Right.
Andrew Davis:
But if you don't take that approach, you need another way to, like, just say, cut the excitement. Because the excitement is said to be like a bad boss. This mental said to be like a bad boss. That's always saying, what's. When's the next thing going to be done?
Andrew Davis:
It wasn't enough, you know, can you elaborate on that more? And we know feeling as we're american or you're canadian, I guess, maybe. But anyway, we're in that same culture, and so knowing that we need to rest, we need to, you know, that piece is important.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. That resonates with me personally. You know, I have my own company. I'm my own boss. The boss in my head is sometimes that bad boss.
Mark Graban:
So by sometimes, I mean quite often. Right? So I've had similar struggles there of giving myself permission to rest or to relax. And I. That.
Mark Graban:
That struggle is real sometimes of, like, you know, go, go, go, go. I don't have trouble falling asleep, but there's sometimes not a lot of transition between maybe, you know, mental excitement. And then I managed to turn it off and go to sleep. But, like, okay, there's middle ground. Yeah, as you're describing.
Mark Graban:
And I did try a meditation app during the pandemic. And, yeah, I would tend to doze off that, resonate that. I related to that, too. And I'm like, I'm not good at meditation, which maybe the point is not to be good at it.
Andrew Davis:
You know, I think it, you know, it's totally. Nobody's good at anything the first time you try it. Right. Everything's. I'm not good at ice skating.
Andrew Davis:
I'm not good at basketball, you know, like, but the thing is, we meditate. We just don't necessarily realize that that's what we're doing. So there's things like when you're focused and absorbed in something, and you just. The world disappears. You're just absorbed into that.
Andrew Davis:
That's a kind of meditation, you know, when you gain some insight and you're just really dwelling on that and really trying to savor it, you run a very thoughtful podcast. So I'm sure there's a lot, you know, of insights that you pick up and where you're just savoring that. That itself is a meditation. But it's like maybe just even for a few seconds at a time, and it's learning how to extend those moments of insight and let them soak in more deeply. Meditation can be just another excuse for us to feel inadequate, like a lot of us are very driven anyway, and that's kind of depriving it of the joy that it will naturally bring.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. It's almost maybe an opposite of Dunning Kruger syndrome, where you say, well, I know I'm not good at this, so I'm gonna stop doing it.
Andrew Davis:
Right. Yeah, exactly.
Mark Graban:
That tendency. I mean, I play drums, and I've gotten back into that in the past year, and to me, that's as close to, I think, a meditative state, even though I'm obviously, I'm moving, I'm playing, but I'm pretty present. Like, I manage a different part of my brain turns on that I think turns off other stuff. So it's a great stress reliever. I enjoy doing it, the musicality of it, and I think it is a little meditative.
Mark Graban:
I could be wrong.
Andrew Davis:
Yeah. I mean, it's absolutely a state of concentration. The way I think about meditation is it's a type of concentration that's motivated by a good intention. And so playing the drums. Absolutely a type of concentration.
Andrew Davis:
And then the, what would make that a meditation is the motivation with which you go into it. And then, especially if you're doing something with a motivation to help others or to transform yourself to be a better person, you know, long term and for this, for the sake of others, that's what really makes it into a meditation.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. So I want to ask, you know, two other questions before we talk about the book. I mean, kind of the career decisions. You said it was a choice. How did you choose first to become buddhist and then to become a monk?
Mark Graban:
And then how did you choose then to get into the software and technology world?
Andrew Davis:
Yeah, I was a nerdy little kid, so I had some math science bent through school, but I was also, I'd say, you know, kind of thoughtful and sensitive and thinking about big questions and wanting to make my life meaningful very much, and not. And not wanting to be around just to use up space, consume a lot of food, consume a lot of natural resources and so forth. And so from pretty early on in my life, I was really weighing this question about there needs to be a good reason for me to stick around on earth. And so I thought, what is the root cause? I was very concerned about environmental problems and social problems and wars and these kinds of things, and I was thinking, what's the root cause of all of these issues?
Andrew Davis:
And I came to the conclusion when I was around 15 or 16 that the root cause of all these problems was that humans were crazy, and that the most useful contribution I could make would be to try to help humans to be less crazy. And if I want to do that, then I'm going to have to be less crazy. And if I'm going to be less crazy, I'm going to need to come under the influence of someone who doesn't seem to be crazy. And I bumped into the example of Buddha and some teachings around that time, and I just thought, this is not crazy. This seems to be not crazy, like, this focus on internal peace, building your own wisdom, compassion.
Andrew Davis:
That feels not crazy. And so I made a decision in high school around that time to become a buddhist monk, and took me a number of years to figure out how to do that, I guess. Well, during those couple of years, I went to school for engineering, which a lot of my cousins had done, because none of the universities I was looking at had a buddhist monk program. So I didn't know.
Mark Graban:
I mean, how common is that? I mean, so you go to a. The equivalent of a seminary. I don't know.
Andrew Davis:
Not. Not in. Not in America. My wife's Korean. In Korea.
Andrew Davis:
You can do that in America. That's not. That just doesn't happen. There are. There aren't such programs.
Andrew Davis:
And so I was just kind of wandering, and I did what my cousins had done, which go into Virginia tech, get a degree in engineering. So, yeah, did that. So I had a lot of technical skills and background when, after university. Anyway, there's longer versions of the story, but I wound up just taking some random job, and it was like an hour away from my home. So I'd commute in the dark in the morning, work a long day, commute in an hour back in the evening.
Andrew Davis:
And at one point, I'm sitting in traffic and I'm just like, okay, well, that's it. I'm working for the man. The dream's over. Never mind. You know, all dreams are broken in the end.
Andrew Davis:
So I just, you know, and then I bumped into a flyer for meditation center. Meditation. Went to that and started going back and connected with the meditation center. And when I showed up there, you know, in addition to learning meditation, volunteering in other ways, they needed help with some technical things, so I would do some web design and graphics, and so I kept some of my tech skills warm. And so when I left the life of being a monk, I, you know, it was a pretty easy, pretty.
Andrew Davis:
My last few years as a monk, I was the director of it for the global buddhist organization. So that made it pretty easy to figure out what I was going to do when I was not.
Mark Graban:
There you go. Yeah, yeah. Because that desire to help people, had you not run into the meditation center, I mean, there could have been pathways into becoming a counselor or mental health professional, perhaps, but this seemed. This opportunity presented itself to you to help that way.
Andrew Davis:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my dad was a therapist, a psychotherapist, and he had a lot of influence on me, but I think there's something about, well, I'm not going to do what he did, so I'm going to be a techie kind of person. And so. But I think, in a sense, I've ended up as some kind of a hybrid techie mental health person. Yeah.
Andrew Davis:
And, you know, I would like to think that had I not become a monk, I'd have done something else in the benevolent strain, but, yeah, yeah.
Mark Graban:
So companies can be crazy, or quite often are. So how do we help avoid that? Maybe that starts getting to the topic of your book, flow engineering. So let's transition to talk about some of the concepts there and kind of open ended question can give us the overview of that book.
Andrew Davis:
Sure. Great. So flow engineering just came out last month, and it was a collaboration with my now very close friend, Steve Pereira. And originally, I had written this book on DevOps for Salesforce and I had become very interested in value stream mapping from talks by Jez Humble. And it just really came highly recommended as a way to increase clarity, reduce the waste in any kind of process in an organization, including in the software development process.
Andrew Davis:
And I saw the reason I got into DevOps for Salesforce. I started as a Salesforce developer and then I just saw there was so much time being wasted and so much effort was being wasted, so much just confusion and a lot of it due to people information being fragmented. You know, you're working on your thing and I'm working on my thing and I don't realize that, I don't realize that the mistakes that I'm making are causing you problems. You know, I'm not, you know, I'm not checking the security on my code and so somebody else has to do rework or whatever. So, and so many of those issues can be resolved by just bringing people together and visualizing the work process, clarifying what it is that we're trying to be focused on, and then looking at, you know, what are the parts of the work process that are really causing pain for everybody and what can we do to resolve them.
Andrew Davis:
And it's basically a conversation, it's a structured conversation with visualization activities. And so in the course of work, meeting Steve, talking with him and so forth, realized we just shared so much common passion for flow with two meanings. There's the internal flow state. Being in a state of flow, I would say when you're playing the drums, you're in flow state. Flow state is a state of concentration.
Andrew Davis:
And so flow state very closely aligned with meditation. And you know, as I was a software developer as well, when I was writing code, if my wife came in and she's like, oh, it's time for lunch, I'm like, not now. I'll be, if you interrupt me now, I'll forget everything. I've got this in a state of flow. So I really appreciate the beauty and the power of, it's the flow state that is responsible for all the really high quality code, high quality architecture, great insights, everything that, all the innovation that makes companies run well, or writing a.
Mark Graban:
Book, you get in the flow state hopefully, right?
Andrew Davis:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And if you can get into a flow state, it's easy. And if you can't get into a flow state, it's hard. And that's true so many things in an organization. So we want, ideally everybody in the organization would stay in a state of flow all the time.
Andrew Davis:
But the problem is, when you're in a state of flow, you forget about everybody else. And so I'm not thinking about you and what you're dealing with and so forth. And so when you've got to find a balance between individual flow and the creativity that it brings, and collective workflow, which involves some degree of distraction. And this is not exactly. Ideally, I wouldn't even have to think about what Mark's doing, but now that I know what Mark's working on, I understand that I need to do things a certain way to make things work for Mark.
Andrew Davis:
And so the idea of figuring out what we can do to enable collaborative workflow and also maximize the degree to which people are able to stay in an internal state of flow, because there really is a tension between those. But that's really what the book is about.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, and you mentioned value stream mapping, and there's a number of connections that come to mind. I mean, that's a tool I've used for a long time in manufacturing. It has origins, as you know, in manufacturing. It's an adaptation of something credited to Toyota of mapping out material flow, information flow. I've helped a lot of organizations in healthcare use a value stream map because those organizations are so silo focused.
Mark Graban:
So you have a department focusing on its work, and it really doesn't know what happens when the patient or the tube of blood gets passed on to the next department. So I've seen the power of just getting everybody into a room and let's map out that entire value stream that goes across these different departments and functions. And then you're not having to tell people what the problems are. They're discovering it. And then they start thinking, like, okay, as long as you can get past whatever feelings of shame they might have, sometimes people get embarrassed.
Mark Graban:
I don't know if you've seen this in software tech circles, wherever. Now you map it out and it's eye opening. And then there's, even with technical people, there can be some feelings involved, but then we can start breaking down silos and coming up with solutions. I think that's. I mean, my experience with this is, that's an incredibly powerful tool, even if there are waves of emotion that happen along the way.
Mark Graban:
I'm curious what your thoughts are on all of that.
Andrew Davis:
Yeah. And, you know, we had the other conversation on your, on your lean blog podcast, and you brought up the same example and it moved me and it stuck in my mind. The idea that in the healthcare field, as you mentioned, you've got really conscientious people, right? People who got into that field because they nurses and so forth, because they wanted to help. They've got a motivation of benevolence.
Andrew Davis:
They have a very strong pro social motivation, very empathetic. The last thing they want to do is harm a patient, create a risk, or even harm their coworkers and so forth. And as you point out, that discovery of, like, oh, you know, I had no idea I was. I was causing problems. I was putting the patient at risk and so forth.
Andrew Davis:
And that emotional wave, what's fascinating to me is that is, you know, I had gone into being a monk, really, because I'm like, okay, the world is broken. Corporate capitalism is a. Is a disaster. We're destroying the earth. You know, don't want anything to do with normal, mainstream society.
Andrew Davis:
And so I really tried to create a lot of distance between myself and most organizations, and western healthcare is too expensive, and all these kinds of things I'll just do. I was interested in eastern medicine for a long time, but then coming back, you eventually come back around and you realize that these cold, cruel, capitalistic corporations are filled with people, you know, with feelings. We're trying to do a good job, trying to work with their coworkers and so forth. And I realized my wife had said it, warned me before I got it, after I was left being a monk, before I got a job, she said, you're going to have a real culture shock entering into the cold, cruel, capitalistic world. Everybody's just focused on money and so forth.
Andrew Davis:
I'm like, all right, all right. I'll embrace myself. You know, I've seen worse. I got into this, this consulting company, and it was a serious culture shock. And I was really shocked at how incredibly generous everybody was, incredibly patient they were, at how incredibly concerned about the customers they were, at how they would, you know, just be attentive to all the little details.
Andrew Davis:
And I was very humbling. For me, yeah, because I thought I was in the virtue business. I was like a professional virtue person. And I'm like, you guys, amateurs, right? Everybody else is.
Andrew Davis:
And then you come and I'm like, God, these people are more patient than I am. They're more generous than I am, more concerned, really, about the customer than I am. And I realized that for any organization to function, there's got to be some virtue flowing through its veins. There's like an undercurrent of, I can't work with you if I can't trust that you're not going to steal my stuff or intentionally try to harm or make my life difficult. That if you've got that virtuous foundation, you can build a harmonious organization.
Andrew Davis:
If you don't have a foundation of basic and not so basic ethics and virtue and consideration, everything gets harder.
Mark Graban:
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Davis:
If not impossible.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to think about the values or virtual virtues or principles of individuals. And on some level, a company is nothing but a collection of people. But at the same time, I don't know where these disconnects come from when we talk about mistakes, for example, and psychological safety. And I'd like to delve into that a little bit more with you, but I've found, like, individuals tend to readily agree with the statement, like, we're all human.
Mark Graban:
We're all going to make mistakes. They're unintentional. Like, you shouldn't punish mistakes. But then somehow, organizationally, an organization that's full of maybe a majority or a vast majority of people who share that individual view, sometimes, somehow, people get into a leadership position, and somehow they're taught, like, well, you have to punish people. And, like, somehow the leaders are acting in ways that seem, like, really inconsistent with what the individual views would be of people in that company.
Mark Graban:
Or even that leader who's punishing someone for a mistake might have an individual belief versus the role they feel like they have to play as a leader. I mean, those. I don't have a good answer for why I observe this disconnected. I don't know if others share that view yet alone what the solution is.
Andrew Davis:
Yeah. One thing that was coming to my mind was this. The famous old Stanford prison. Philip Zimbardo ran this experiment where if you dress somebody up in a white lab coat, you can get the person. The white lab coat says, hey, press this button, and you can give an electric shock to that other person.
Andrew Davis:
And people would just do what they were told, even if it looked like they were seriously hurting or killing the other person. Right. So there's an institutional insensitivity. And it's interesting because on one level, you need a certain kind of. It's very tricky because we want to be sensitive and empathetic.
Andrew Davis:
But at some point, when you're making decisions at scale, you do need to desensitize yourself a little bit, think about the bigger picture and average things out. And so you can get policies that are insensitive, and then they just get imposed institutional culture, and then you can build a momentum around these assumed behaviors of what we're supposed to be like that. I think it's in the lean community it talks a lot about the importance of being lean now and early so that we don't have to make these major corrections, like a massive reduction in force later. You do lots of small, continuous improvements. So you always know you're staying as close to optimal as you can on one level.
Andrew Davis:
You know, the consequences, whether in the near term or long term, will be painful for the organization. And then there's just this basic process of being born as a living being and trying to figure out this difference between I'm in here and everybody else is out there and the big world is scary and I'm scared. And I just try to act like I know what's going on. And then, you know, you know, if we learn how to bully, you know, be bullied and avoid being bullying, avoid bullied, and these very childish behaviors of like, oh, they're the bad group, and you get these clicks forming and it all gets very, a lot of that gets smoothed out as we get older. But I think some of those things still linger.
Andrew Davis:
Right? Yeah. Blaming somebody, you know, you did it and.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, yeah. And there's bullying in workplaces far too often. But how much of that I'm trying to remember. I'm not an expert on that prison experiment, but isn't part of the dynamic there of being placed in a position of power of, like, you are a guard and these other people are prisoners and you have power over them, maybe. And what people, if some switch flips in people's head or that dynamic of having power and being, being able to use it or not wanting to lose it?
Mark Graban:
Right, right.
Andrew Davis:
Yeah. I should refresh my memory of the details. Yes. But I think there's a lot of these things that, I mean, are well known by sociologists. I have a friend, I have a friend who's a sociologist.
Andrew Davis:
She's in Israel. Leah. Hi, Leah. Leah Hagol. She is a professor of sociology.
Andrew Davis:
And sociology is, is not the most respected discipline in the world of the university. Like, like, you go to socio, you go to, you get a sociology degree, you end up being a social worker. And social workers tend to, you know, it's not the most prestigious job, not the most well paid job, a lot of burnout from social work and so forth.
Mark Graban:
Yeah.
Andrew Davis:
You know, and, and I was saying to her that sociology feels like the most important domain, most important subject, because it's like we're all fish in this sociological ocean, and none of us know what an ocean is. None of us realize that we're living in this sociological world. We're living in this highly conditioned. And any sociologist coming into our company, anybody's company, would be able to say, oh, look at the power dynamics there, factions forming here, no defensive reaction here. And it would be transparent, it would be blatantly obvious if you had a scientific observer, a sociologist, observing the corporate dynamics.
Andrew Davis:
But when you're in it, you can't see it because you're in it and it's invisible. Right. And you're subject to it, and then you're driven by these, these instinctive tendencies and your own react. Tendency to react and anger and attachment and.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, here, I'm gonna grab a book off the shelf here, because I think for better or for worse, sometimes for worse. And I'm an engineer, so I'm gonna throw stones. You had engineers. A lot of the early lean books were written by engineers. I mean, you know, the disciplines out of, you know, Toyota was being led and developed by engineers and industrial engineers like myself.
Mark Graban:
We learn about these things in school and lots of engineering perspectives. But I don't know if you're familiar with the Toyota way by Jeffrey Leicher. His PhD is in sociology.
Andrew Davis:
Wow. Yeah.
Mark Graban:
And so, you know, it's just great to have perspectives. And his books and, you know, in this series tend to focus much more on things like mindsets and philosophies and behaviors and things that are maybe ultimately the most important within a workplace.
Andrew Davis:
Right, right, right. And that's the amazing power of these sort of cross disciplinary overlaps. When you get somebody like Jeffrey Leicher and you show them Toyota and how they operate, they see a very different thing. Then you as sort of, if you were a naive industrial engineer, you'd come and you'd say, oh, yeah, the assembly lines and manufacturing and handoffs and so forth, and then training that trained eye to see the sociological dimension, they see a totally different world.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. And so, you know, one of the books he co authored in the series, Toyota Culture, is the only one that I've found that explicitly uses the phrase psychological safety in the way, you know, we talk about creating an environment where people feel safe to speak up, and you see evidence of that in so many Toyota practices. And you and Steve touch on this in the book in flow engineering. So maybe as maybe a final question here, I'm curious, your thoughts on what you've learned about psychological safety, why that was something that's emphasized in the book.
Andrew Davis:
Yeah. I really appreciate you raising it and sort of keeping it in people's attention, because I think we don't realize how much remains unspoken if there's not a psychologically safe environment. And when things remain unspoken, then they remain unaddressed. And you and I might have the exact same worries, the exact same concerns, but if neither of us ever voice it, then we don't realize that there's anybody else who knows it. And so the.
Andrew Davis:
The insights that we have, they die in isolation when. When there's not psychological safety. So it's psychological safety that allows for there to be an opening and a free flow of values, of, basically, of feelings, thoughts, and behaviors. And the whole book, flow engineering, is really about what we call the elements of action. Feeling value is the epitome of feeling.
Andrew Davis:
Clarity is the epitome of thinking, and flow is the epitome of action. These basic three elements, the three main active psychological elements. But the book is really about breaking down the barriers between people. So you get shared values, shared clarity and insights, shared flow, shared behavior. And the precondition for that is sense of psychological safety.
Andrew Davis:
If there's not a sense of psychological safety, you trigger the most basic reaction that any living being has, which is, it's not safe for me to share. And I experienced. One of the reasons I have such a. So much gratitude for Steve and the book project together is that I just felt at ease with him, and I felt comfortable sharing ideas that were more kind of on the fringe than that I'd not shared before in the workplace, because I was quite guarded. You know, I was in the closet as a former monk.
Andrew Davis:
I didn't make indication of that for the first two years company. I was very guarded, very cautious about what I indicated. My, you know, whatever wacky observations or thoughts I'd have. You know, it took me a while, and I'm still easing out of that. I'm still trying to find more, you know, including this podcast telling that story that I'd not never in a public forum.
Andrew Davis:
So, yeah, to find that comfort and ease being myself and then, you know, you realize that some people resonate with it, and the people who don't resonate with it, at least they'll be better informed, they'll understand, and hopefully they won't use it against you. But that's the risk that you take, but you build your courage, right? And so we talked in the other lean podcast about it's important to create an environment of psychological safety to help draw out that courage and relaxation confidence. But the more you do that, the more you can internalize a sense of psychological safety and not need such a sort of gentle environment. And really, the full maturation of psychological safety is that everybody feels so psychologically safe with each other that we know we can point out each other's mistakes and faults without hurting each other.
Mark Graban:
Right. We can disagree and disagree back or. Yeah, right.
Andrew Davis:
That's the maturation of it. I feel totally safe telling you that was a terrible idea and you really need to never do that again because it's going to cause all these problems and so forth. And I know it's not going to damage our friendship. I know it's not going to be a fatal crushing blow to your ego. Right.
Andrew Davis:
You know, so that's the maturation. Yeah. Has to start like. Like a child.
Mark Graban:
Right.
Andrew Davis:
It starts very gentle, very small, very fragile as you're building culture.
Mark Graban:
Yeah.
Andrew Davis:
Yeah.
Mark Graban:
Because I think without psychological safety, bringing it back to the value stream mapping, people don't feel safe pointing out a problem in the value stream. You know, one thing that comes up a lot of times in healthcare where there's a lot of variation and how people were taught and trained and how they do their work, you're mapping out a value stream and inevitably there's somebody in the room who wants to say, and hopefully they feel safe raising their hand and saying that's not how we do it on our shift or that's not how I do it. And we should highlight that and talk through it if they feel like the response is going to be getting in trouble for not doing it, the quote unquote standard way, that issue might remain hidden.
Andrew Davis:
Right, right.
Mark Graban:
I love the way you call it a precondition. You know, when I was taught that word of like, you know, breathing is a precondition for value stream mapping as well, you know, it's not, it's not a nice to have.
Andrew Davis:
Yeah, I mean, well, breathing in the sense of being alive and then just breathing in the sense of like, okay, let's just calm down and none of us get defensive and so forth. So there's that kind of breathing that's also really great catalyst for having that kind of honest discussion.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. Well, again, our guest today has been Andrew Davis, co author most recently of the book Flow Engineering from value stream mapping to effective action. We're going to do an episode with this co author, Steve Pereira. I'm going to ask a final question that, you know, Steve has a different background and doesn't do this. You offer some free classes on personal transformation.
Andrew Davis:
I do actually on your website.
Mark Graban:
If you could tell us about that a little bit here as we wrap up.
Andrew Davis:
Sure. Yeah, it was again, as I was gradually coming out of the closet as a former buddhist monk, and. And figuring out how to integrate these two worlds. It was during the pandemic, and there were all these resources coming out around mental health, and here's how you can deal with all the stress and the anxiety of lockdown and so forth. I sort of very shyly and slowly started doing some YouTube videos and offered to co workers.
Andrew Davis:
Hey, I'd be happy to offer some meditation classes. And I got a very, very warm response from lots of coworkers. Not everybody, but it's self selecting, right? So my wife and I have now set up a nonprofit meditation center called the center for Harmonious Living in San Diego. And it's kind of online.
Andrew Davis:
And so if you go to chill life, chl Life, center for Harmoniousliving Life, you'll see the links to the Sunday meditation class. Free, open everybody, as well as the other programs we're offering.
Mark Graban:
So is that chill with two ls life? Or was it.
Andrew Davis:
No, it's CHL. It's =Center for Harmonious Living.
Mark Graban:
But I CHL. Okay, CHL life. Don't make a mistake of going to a wrong or non existent website.
Andrew Davis:
I should probably see if I can get chilled out the actual words spell that.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, at Chl life. Andrew, this has been great doing a second podcast with you. I really enjoy the conversation. Thank you for sharing that story with us and your reflections and lessons learned. Really, really great stuff.
Mark Graban:
Thanks.
Andrew Davis:
Wonderful interview. So grateful for what you're doing with the podcast and. Yeah, wonderful to have the conversation, Mark. Thanks.
Mark Graban:
Thank you.
Episode Summary and More
A Journey from Buddhism to Tech: Lessons in Burnout, Balance, and Resilience
Welcome to another fascinating story shared on “My Favorite Mistake.” In this episode, we delve into the unique journey of Andrew Davis, the Chief Product Officer at AutoRABIT and co-author of “Flow Engineering from Value Stream Mapping to Effective Action.” Andrew's background as a Buddhist monk, his deep expertise in Salesforce DevOps, and his remarkable transition to the tech world bring invaluable insights into understanding burnout and resilience.
The Unique Background of Andrew Davis
It's not often you encounter a tech leader with a history quite like Andrew Davis’s. Andrew spent 15 years as a Buddhist monk before becoming a prominent figure in Salesforce DevOps. This eclectic background has profoundly shaped his perspectives on software development, emphasizing the human side of the equation.
Andrew's experience as a monk endowed him with a wealth of knowledge in meditation, personal transformation, and community building. These skills have proven to be assets in his tech career, particularly in understanding the psychological dynamics within teams and fostering a culture of empathy and compassion. Through system thinking, Andrew bridges business, technology, and psychology, creating more holistic approaches to software development.
The Pitfalls of Overcommitment: Burnout as a Buddhist Monk
Burnout is a pervasive issue, not just in the corporate world but also in nonprofit and spiritual communities. Andrew candidly shared his experience of burning out as a Buddhist monk—a journey that began with intense dedication and culminated in a profound need for balance and self-care.
Spending over a decade in a Western Buddhist organization, Andrew and his peers were pioneers, striving to introduce new ways of thinking oriented towards harmony and empathy. However, this noble ambition also came with its challenges. The lack of a network for mentoring and cross-checking exacerbated the sense of isolation and relentless commitment. Andrew's realization came after years of exhausting efforts without sufficient self-care, realizing that even the most deeply felt spiritual commitments could lead to burnout if not managed with balance and mindfulness.
The Role of Relationships and the Quest for Peace
The turning point for Andrew was entering into a relationship, which marked the end of his monastic life and the beginning of a new chapter. This transition wasn't just about finding a partner but about recognizing the need for inner peace and relaxation. As a Buddhist monk, the irony of craving relaxation was a lesson in itself—highlighting that even those dedicated to spiritual lives need breaks and rejuvenation.
This experience led Andrew to a crucial understanding: the necessity of balancing intense dedication with adequate rest. Whether you’re deeply spiritually absorbed or driven in a high-pressure job, the need for a human connection and balance remains constant. His journey through relationship and self-discovery paved the way for new learnings about being a better partner and a more balanced individual.
Lessons Learned: Applying Buddhist Teachings to Modern Challenges
The principles Andrew learned as a monk around mindfulness, balance, and resilience have been invaluable in his tech career. The concept of mental excitement—where constant thinking and responsibilities prevent true peace—is transferable to many high-pressure roles today. Recognizing and managing this mental excitement is crucial for avoiding burnout and maintaining mental health.
In his current role, Andrew applies these lessons by ensuring he takes time to decompress and avoid letting work overwhelm him. He doesn’t rely on traditional methods like alcohol or mindless entertainment to relax but instead seeks deeper methods of rejuvenation that align with his values. Recognizing when to cut the excitement and allow the mind to rest has been a cornerstone in maintaining his drive while avoiding burnout.
These learnings serve as a reminder that regardless of profession or commitment, balance is key. The bad boss mentality of constant demand and pressure, whether in a corporate setting or internally, must be managed for sustainable success and well-being.
Insights for Entrepreneurs and Leaders
Andrew’s story is particularly resonant for entrepreneurs and leaders who face the constant grind. The pressure to perform and the tendency towards workaholism can lead to burnout if not managed properly. Entrepreneurs often find themselves in the ‘bad boss' role, pushing themselves relentlessly without recognizing the need for balance.
Andrew’s journey serves as a powerful illustration of the importance of giving oneself permission to rest, finding peace in non-traditional ways, and applying deep-rooted principles of mindfulness to modern-day challenges. The ability to transform perceived failures into lessons of resilience and growth can turn setbacks into stepping stones for a more balanced and fruitful life. were going to find that even in the tech world, people are genuinely trying to do their best and often care deeply about the impact of their work. And she was right. This realization was crucial in bridging my monastic training with the corporate environment.
Building Empathy in Tech Teams
Understanding the human factor is fundamental in technology and business. It’s easy to get lost in the mechanics and technicalities of software development, yet, the real drivers of success are often emotional intelligence and empathy. Meditation and mindfulness practices have equipped me with tools to foster empathy and understanding within my team at AutoRABIT.
Introducing these practices can help create a culture where team members feel valued and understood. For example:
- Mindfulness Sessions: Short, guided meditation sessions integrated into the workday can enhance focus and reduce stress.
- Empathy Training: Regular workshops can help team members understand and share the feelings of their colleagues, improving teamwork and communication.
Applying Flow Principles to DevOps
Flow engineering emphasizes optimizing the workflow, which can be juxtaposed with creating a mental flow state within teams. The challenge is to harmonize individual and collective productivity.
Visualizing Work Processes
Using tools like value stream mapping, we can create a visual representation of our workflows. This makes inefficiencies and bottlenecks visible, enabling us to address them effectively. We can draw parallels with meditation, where the objective is to visualize and understand the flow of thoughts to gain clarity and insight.
The Balance of Individual and Team Flow
Individual flow is about deep concentration and productivity. Team flow, on the other hand, requires interaction and collaboration. Striking a balance between these two is crucial:
- Dedicated Deep Work Time: Providing uninterrupted time blocks for developers to delve deep into their tasks.
- Regular Sync Meetings: Ensuring frequent communications to keep everyone aligned with the collective goals.
Navigating the Emotional Terrain of Change
Introducing new ways of working, especially those that require altering long-held practices, can induce significant emotional shifts. Value stream mapping and other collaborative tools often reveal uncomfortable truths about existing inefficiencies and misalignments. Addressing these requires sensitivity and leadership that prioritizes emotional intelligence.
Handling Emotional Waves
In my experience, acknowledging and addressing the emotional responses that come with workflow changes is key:
- Open Discussions: Creating safe spaces where team members can express their concerns and frustrations.
- Support Systems: Implementing support structures, such as counseling or mentorship programs, to help individuals navigate these emotional waves.
Long-Term Benefits of Mindfulness in Tech
The long-term benefits of mindfulness and empathy—including reduced burnout, increased collaboration, and higher job satisfaction—are significant. These principles aren't just theoretical but are actively shaping the work culture at AutoRABIT.
Enhancing Innovation and Creativity
Mindfulness supports a mental environment where creativity can flourish. Encouraging moments of reflection and mindful practices can lead to more innovative ideas and solutions.
- Innovation Hours: Allocating time specifically for creative brainstorming, free from the pressures of daily tasks.
- Reflective Exercises: Ending meetings with short periods of reflection can help consolidate ideas and improve future sessions.
Leveraging these practices and insights from my unique journey, we can create healthier, more resilient tech environments that not only drive innovation but also nurture the well-being of those within them.
The Importance of Virtue in Corporate Environments
It's fascinating how an environment assumed to be driven by cutthroat competition and profitability can manifest a deeply empathetic and customer-focused culture. What I discovered was that genuine concern for customers and colleagues can coexist with the pursuit of business success. This realization is essential in understanding how virtue at an individual level—patience, generosity, and attentiveness—can form the bedrock of an organizational ethos.
Creating a Virtuous Foundation
For any organization to truly prosper, it's imperative that virtue flows through its operations. Imagine trying to build a harmonious organization without a foundation of ethics and consideration:
- Trust Building: An environment where employees can trust each other is crucial for effective collaboration.
- Ethical Conduct: Upholding a high standard of ethics ensures that everyone feels secure in their roles, fostering a positive work culture.
This perspective challenges the stereotype that corporate environments are inherently ruthless. Instead, it points to the potential for creating a nurturing and constructive workplace, where virtues like kindness and patience are not just valued but essential.
Navigating Mistakes and Psychological Safety
Mistakes are an unavoidable part of any work environment. However, how an organization deals with them can significantly impact its culture and success. Psychological safety, the confidence that one will not be punished or humiliated for speaking up with ideas, questions, concerns, or mistakes, becomes a cornerstone for a thriving workplace.
The Psychological Safety Disconnect
A curious paradox exists: while most individuals agree that mistakes should not be harshly punished, organizational structures often propagate a culture of blame. This discrepancy can stem from various factors, including leadership roles and inherited institutional behaviors.
The Role of Leadership in Cultivating Safety
Leaders play a critical role in bridging this disconnect by fostering a culture of openness:
- Encouraging Open Communication: Leaders should promote an environment where team members feel comfortable discussing issues without fear of repercussions.
- Modeling Vulnerability: By openly sharing their own mistakes and learning experiences, leaders can set a powerful example, encouraging others to do the same.
Overcoming Institutional Insensitivity
Institutional culture can sometimes enforce insensitivity, as policies and behaviors get ingrained and perpetuated without deliberate effort to change them. This can be particularly challenging when decisions need to be made at scale, often requiring a degree of detachment.
Lean and Continuous Improvement
Implementing lean principles, such as continuous, incremental improvements, can help mitigate the harsh effects of broad, sweeping changes. This approach maintains a close-to-optimal state and avoids the need for drastic corrections that can be harmful in the long run.
- Small-Scale Changes: Regularly implementing minor adjustments can prevent the accumulation of significant issues.
- Feedback Loops: Establishing robust feedback mechanisms ensures timely identification and resolution of problems.
Emotional Nudges and Workplace Dynamics
Understanding and navigating the emotional landscapes within teams are crucial for maintaining harmony and productivity. Sociological insights can offer valuable perspectives in this domain.
Sociological Insights in the Workplace
When observed from a sociological standpoint, many underlying dynamics in a corporate setting become apparent. Power dynamics, faction formation, and defensive reactions are just some of the phenomena that an impartial observer might identify.
- Transparency and Observation: Bringing a trained sociologist or a similar observer into the fold can help illuminate these dynamics, paving the way for interventions.
- Addressing Instinctive Behaviors: Recognizing and addressing instinctive reactions, such as anger and attachment, can lead to more mindful and purposeful interactions.
Developing and Sustaining Psychological Safety
Psychological safety isn't merely about avoiding punishment; it's about creating an environment where open communication and mutual respect thrive.
Encouraging Honest Communication
Open communications and the freedom to share insights without fear are pivotal. When team members feel psychologically safe, creativity and problem-solving capabilities are significantly enhanced.
- Creating Safe Spaces: Forums and meetings where employees can voice their concerns and ideas without repercussions.
- Soliciting Feedback: Regularly asking for and acting on feedback ensures that everyone feels heard and valued.
The Maturation of Psychological Safety
As psychological safety matures, so does the team’s ability to handle criticism and feedback constructively. This maturation means:
- Constructive Criticism: Team members can give and receive feedback without damaging their relationships or morale.
- Resilience: The ability to bounce back from setbacks is strengthened, fostering a culture of continuous improvement and learning.
The journey towards cultivating a psychologically safe environment is continuous and requires dedication from all levels of the organization. By embracing these principles and practices, we can build workplaces where innovation and well-being go hand-in-hand.
Incorporating Personal Transformation into Corporate Wellness
In corporate settings, stress and anxiety are common challenges that employees face, especially during unprecedented times like the COVID-19 pandemic. Addressing these mental health issues can be instrumental in fostering a healthier work environment. Incorporating personal transformation classes, inspired by practices such as meditation and mindfulness, can be a profound step in this direction.
The Role of Meditation in Corporate Wellness
Meditation is not just a personal wellness tool but can also significantly enhance workplace dynamics. By integrating meditation classes into corporate wellness programs, companies can help their employees manage stress, improve focus, and increase overall job satisfaction.
- Stress Reduction: Regular meditation practice helps lower stress levels, which can lead to better decision-making and productivity.
- Enhanced Focus: Mindfulness exercises improve concentration and allow employees to be more present in their daily tasks.
- Emotional Balance: Meditation can foster emotional intelligence, helping employees navigate interpersonal relationships with greater ease and empathy.
Implementation Strategy
To successfully incorporate meditation into a corporate wellness program, the following steps can be considered:
- Identify Employee Needs: Conduct surveys or focus groups to understand the specific stressors and mental health needs of the workforce.
- Engage Experts: Partner with experienced meditation instructors or organizations specializing in corporate wellness to design tailored programs.
- Offer Flexible Options: Provide a range of classes—both in-person and virtual—to accommodate various schedules and preferences.
- Promote Inclusivity: Ensure the program is inclusive and considerate of diverse backgrounds and belief systems.
Case Study: Center for Harmonious Living
A notable example of successfully integrating meditation into organizational culture can be seen in the efforts of Andrew Davis and his initiatives at the Center for Harmonious Living. The center offers free Sunday meditation classes online, which have garnered a positive response from various participants, highlighting the demand and appreciation for such wellness initiatives.
- Nonprofit Initiative: The center operates as a nonprofit, emphasizing accessibility and community-focused wellness.
- Online Accessibility: By offering classes online, they make it possible for individuals from different geographic locations to participate, increasing the program's reach and impact.
- Community Building: Such initiatives foster a sense of community and shared purpose among participants, enhancing overall employee engagement and morale.
Sustaining Long-term Benefits
The long-term benefits of integrating meditation and mindfulness practices in the workplace are profound. Organizations that invest in these programs often see improvements in employee well-being, which translates to higher retention rates and enhanced workplace culture.
- Continuous Support: Regularly update and modify the wellness program to keep it relevant and engaging for employees.
- Success Metrics: Measure the impact of these initiatives using qualitative and quantitative data to understand their efficacy and make informed adjustments.
- Leadership Endorsement: Having leaders who actively participate and advocate for these programs can significantly enhance their acceptance and effectiveness.
Conclusion
The journey towards integrating personal transformation practices like meditation into corporate settings is a holistic approach to fostering a healthier, more productive work environment. Organizations that prioritize the mental and emotional well-being of their employees through such initiatives are likely to see significant improvements in overall workplace culture and performance.