How Speak-Up Culture Builds on Psychological Safety: Stephen Shedletzky

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My guest for Episode #250 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Stephen Shedletzky or “Shed” to his friends. He is a sought-after speaker, coach, and advisor, — As a thought leader on psychological safety in the workplace, Shed has led hundreds of keynote presentations, workshops, and leadership development programs around the world.

Author of the book Speak-Up Culture: When Leaders Truly Listen, People Step Up.

After years on a corporate track, Shed was introduced to and inspired by the work of best-selling author Simon Sinek and, became the fourth person to join his team. For more than a decade, Shed contributed at Simon Sinek, where he led a global team of speakers and facilitators.

Shed graduated from the Richard Ivey School of Business with a focus on leadership, communication, and strategy. He received his coaching certification from The Co-Active Training Institute. He lives in Toronto with his wife and two young children.

Shed's route from his first job post-business school to establishing himself as a speaker, coach, and thought leader reflects the transformative power of self-awareness and the pursuit of work that aligns with personal passions. He transitioned from a potentially constrained corporate environment to one where he could significantly impact organizational cultures on a global scale.

While navigating shifts in career paths can be intimidating, especially during disruptions like layoffs, such moments can provide much-needed clarity and drive individuals to seek opportunities that resonate more with their personal values and dreams. Shed's experiences prove that embracing change and following your passion can lead to a fulfilling career, inspiring others to contemplate and pursue their professional aspirations in a more authentic, dedicated, and inspired manner.

Adopting psychological safety, authentic leadership, and the courage to speak up is critical to nurturing a positive and productive workplace culture. Steven Shedletzky's life and insights stand as an inspiration for all personnel, helping them create environments that prioritize the well-being of their teams and promote purposeful and fulfilling work.

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Questions and Topics:

• Should we quit or stick it out??
• What is a speak-up culture? Why a speak-up culture? 
• Lessons about HOW to speak up most effectively?
• Maybe we should call it ‘listen up culture’?
• How often are leaders in denial about this culture problem? Or how often do they put the onus on employees that they SHOULD speak up?
• Elon Musk seems not to engender a speak-up culture…
• Boeing has declared now they want employees to speak up
• What must leaders do to cultivate a “speak up” culture?

Scroll down to find:

• Video version of the episode
• How to subscribe
• Quotes
• Full transcript

Find Shed on social media:

• LinkedIn
• YouTube
• Instagram

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Episode Summary

The Importance of Psychological Safety in the Workplace

The Rise of Psychological Safety as a Key Organizational Concern

In the fast-paced and ever-evolving business environment, psychological safety has become a cornerstone of organizational health and employee engagement. Psychological safety, a term brought to the forefront by thought leaders in the industry, refers to the shared belief among team members that it is safe to take interpersonal risks, voice their concerns, and express their ideas without fear of ridicule or retribution. Stephen Shedletzky, a prominent advisor and speaker on this vital topic, has articulated the importance of fostering environments where employees are empowered to speak up, and leaders are encouraged to truly listen.

Organizations that prioritize psychological safety benefit from increased creativity, improved problem-solving, and higher employee retention rates. By acknowledging the human aspect of work and understanding the crucial role that feeling valued and heard plays in personal and professional fulfillment, companies can create a culture where innovation thrives and employees are deeply engaged.

Authentic Leadership and Employee Engagement

The role of leadership in establishing psychological safety cannot be overstated. Stephen Shedletzky's insights into what makes great leaders reveal that authenticity and transparency are key traits of those at the helm of supportive and inclusive workplaces. Effective leaders are not driven by self-preservation, but rather driven by a commitment to serve their teams and facilitate their growth.

Through his own work, both independently and in collaboration with bestselling author Simon Sinek, Shedletzky emphasizes that true leadership goes beyond managing tasks and processes—it's about inspiring people to achieve their full potential. As leaders strive to connect with employees on a deeper level, focusing on engagement, inspiration, and fulfillment, they contribute to creating an organizational culture that is resilient in the face of challenges and conducive to long-term success.

Embracing Challenges and Leveraging Personal Experience

Life's setbacks and personal challenges can play an influential role in shaping one's career and leadership style. Shedletzky's personal anecdotes, including his experience with an oil and gas company post-merger and his candid conversations with team members during a period of change, showcase the impact that transparency and honesty can have in professional settings. His willingness to speak up and share his experiences, even when that led to his dismissal, illuminated his commitment to integrity and the pursuit of a career aligned with his values.

Such experiences can serve as powerful lessons for both emerging and established leaders. They highlight the importance of aligning personal values with organizational culture and underscore the need for workplaces where open communication is not just allowed, but encouraged. By valuing the unique contributions of each team member and navigating professional relationships with empathy and respect, leaders can foster a culture where making what might be seen as “mistakes,” such as speaking up, can lead to significant growth and learning opportunities.

Creating a Speak Up Culture

The notion of a “speak up culture” is pivotal to empowering employees and promoting transparency within an organization. Shedletzky's book, Speak Up Culture, delves into this concept, illustrating that when leaders are accessible and receptive to feedback, they cultivate an environment where employees feel comfortable voicing opinions, suggestions, and concerns. This cultivates a more dynamic, responsive, and innovative organization where individuals at all levels feel invested in the collective success.

It is essential for organizations to actively dismantle barriers that may prevent employees from speaking up or contribute to a silencing of diverse perspectives. By doing so, organizations not only adhere to ethical standards of inclusivity and respect but also leverage the full spectrum of talent and insights available within their workforce. In an era where employee engagement and well-being are directly tied to productivity and performance, creating such a culture is not just advantageous, it's indispensable.

Embracing Change and Seeking Fulfillment

Shedletzky's journey from his initial role out of business school to establishing his own path as a speaker, coach, and thought leader exemplifies the transformative power of self-awareness and the pursuit of work that aligns with one's passions. By identifying and following his interests in employee engagement and fulfillment, he was able to transition from a potentially restrictive corporate environment to one where he could positively influence organizational cultures on a global scale.

Navigating career changes, especially when faced with unexpected disruptions like layoffs or firings, can be daunting. However, such moments can pivot points, providing the clarity and impetus needed to seek opportunities that resonate more deeply with one's values and aspirations. Shedletzky's experiences remind us that embracing change and pursuing passions can lead to impactful work and a rewarding career trajectory. By encouraging others to reflect on what truly matters to them professionally, he paves the way for more authentic, inspired, and committed workforces.

Conclusion

In conclusion, embracing psychological safety, authentic leadership, and the courage to voice one's experiences is essential for nurturing productive and positive workplace cultures. Stephen Shedletzky's journey and insights serve as an inspiration for leaders and employees alike to foster environments that not only prioritize the well-being of their teams but also drive purposeful and fulfilling work.

Defining and Implementing a Speak Up Culture

In an increasingly connected and transparent world, the concept of a speak up culture is not only beneficial but necessary for organizational prosperity. A speak up culture, as conceived by Stephen Shedletzky, encompasses more than just psychological safety—it's a blend of safety and the perceived worthiness of speaking up. This dual approach tackles not just the fear of speaking but also addresses whether employees believe their contributions will lead to meaningful outcomes.

The Nuance of a Speak Up Culture

A thrive-oriented workplace recognizes that employee contributions extend beyond their regular tasks. It values the voices of employees, knowing that diverse insights lead to more effective problem-solving and innovation. The “worth it” component that Shedletzky emphasizes refers to the tangible changes and recognition that result from employees sharing their ideas and feedback. It means assuring team members that their courage in speaking up can, and often does, catalyze organizational advancement.

Parameters of Appropriateness in Speaking Up

While fostering an open discourse is crucial, it's equally important to delineate the boundaries of appropriateness when speaking up:

• Encouraging Tact and Respect: A culture of openness does not condone unbridled candor that can harm professional relationships. Speaking up should be tempered with respect, situational awareness, and emotional intelligence.
• Rejecting Sycophancy and Abrasion: On one extreme, a speak up culture does not entail incessantly echoing higher-ups to gain favor nor veering into obstructionism or negativity. On the other, it's not a license to be abrasive or disrespectful. Collaboration and constructive discourse should be the constant guiding principles.
• Asking the Ferguson Litmus Test: Borrowing the comedian Craig Ferguson's humorous yet insightful approach provides an excellent filter: “Does this need to be said? Does it need to be said by me? Does it need to be said by me now?” Encouraging employees to reflect on these questions can help maintain a balanced and considerate speak up culture.

Strategies for Leaders Encouraging a Speak Up Culture

Leaders play a central role in creating and maintaining a speak up culture. Here are strategies for leaders to actively cultivate an environment where speaking up is the norm:

Creating Mechanisms for Feedback and Ideation

Implementing structured avenues for employees to share their insights, such as regular feedback sessions, suggestion boxes, and open Q&A sessions with leadership, can help normalize the sharing of ideas and concerns without fear of reproach.

Recognizing and Rewarding Courage

Acknowledging and rewarding employees who show the courage to voice constructive feedback or propose novel solutions can foster a positive reinforcement cycle. It demonstrates that taking interpersonal risks is valued, and not just safe, but indeed worth it.

Providing Coaching for Effective Communication

Offering training and resources to help employees communicate their thoughts effectively can have enormous benefits. Leadership can model this through their own behavior by demonstrating clear, empathic, and respectful communication, whether they are giving or receiving critical feedback.

Balancing Authenticity with Organizational Values

While encouraging employees to be their authentic selves, it is crucial to align this authenticity with the values and culture of the organization. This can necessitate a balance between individual expression and adherence to communal norms that uphold a respectful and productive work environment.

Conclusion

Navigating the subtleties of a speak up culture requires a deliberate and tactful approach that values the input of every employee. By emphasizing not just the safety to speak but also the positive outcomes that can result from it, leaders can foster a culture of innovation, trust, and engagement. Stephen Shedletzky's work sheds light on the nuanced nature of this endeavor, illuminating a path forward for creating workplaces that aren’t just safe to speak up in, but where it truly feels worth it to do so.

Empathy as a Leadership Skill

Empathy is a leadership competency that extends beyond mere understanding. It involves actively placing oneself in another's shoes and genuinely responding to their concerns with compassion. Empathy in leadership is reflected in the day-to-day actions of leaders who must be attuned to the nuances of their team members' experiences and perspectives.

The Role of Empathy in Feedback Reception

A leader with empathy does not merely listen to feedback; they truly hear it and consider it within the context of the individual's experience. This deep level of understanding can:

• Transform critical feedback into a constructive conversation
• Foster an environment where employees feel genuinely valued and understood
• Prompt leaders to take actionable steps that reflect an understanding of their team's needs

Empowering employees to offer feedback without fear of retribution or dismissal is critical for an empathetic leadership approach.

Bridging Vision and Leadership

Visionaries often drive change and innovation, but without effective leadership skills, they may struggle to actualize their ideas in a sustainable and humane way. While having a vision is important, it is equally important to lead with integrity and kindness. Here's how leaders can align their visionary qualities with strong leadership:

• Seeking Feedback: Visionaries can sometimes become insulated by their own ideas. Actively seeking feedback ensures a connection with the reality of their team's capabilities and concerns.
• Delegating to Capable Leaders: Visionaries who may lack certain leadership nuances should delegate leadership responsibilities to those who have strong people-management skills, while they focus on big-picture strategies.
• Acknowledging Mistakes: Visionaries are not infallible. An essential aspect of effective leadership is acknowledging when one's approach may be flawed or harmful and being willing to adapt or make reparations.

Cultivating Speak Up Culture in Middle Management

Speak up culture truly comes alive within the veins of an organization—middle management. These managers act as the bridge between the strategic vision of senior leaders and the operational reality of frontline employees. Their unique position allows them to influence culture in every direction.

• Training for Middle Managers: Providing training specifically designed for middle managers can equip them with the skills necessary to facilitate open communication and manage the implementation of organizational values effectively.
• Encouraging Bidirectional Feedback: Middle managers should be encouraged to not only communicate upward and downward but also engage with peers to create a cross-pollination of ideas and feedback.
• Recognition and Support: Recognizing the challenging position that middle managers occupy and providing them with the necessary support can improve their capability to foster a speak up culture.

Conclusion

As we contemplate the principles of a speak up culture, the words of Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky and Mark Graban underline the critical need for genuine listening and authentic, empathetic leadership. From Randy Pausch's lessons in humility to Elon Musk's archetype of visionary yet detached leadership, it becomes clear that the heart of a truly effective speak up culture lies in the quality of human connections and interactions, rooted in compassion and mutual respect.

Effective Leadership and the Power of Belief

In the journey towards fostering a culture of growth and excellence, it is paramount for leaders to recognize the immense sway their belief systems have over their teams. A leader's conviction in the capabilities of their team can significantly affect its members' self-perception, performance, and overall morale. Here's how a leader's belief in their team's potential can transform outcomes:

• Building Confidence: When a leader expresses strong belief in an individual’s abilities, it instills confidence. Team members who feel supported are more likely to take calculated risks, stretching their capabilities, and contributing to innovation and adaptability within the organization.
• Creating a Constructive Challenge Environment: Framing challenges as opportunities for growth rather than as high-stakes tests, positions leaders to use challenges as tools to motivate and develop their teams.
• Developing Personalized Leadership Approaches: To understand what makes each team member tick, leaders must invest in relationships—learning about their aspirations, strengths, and areas where they seek growth. This individualized approach cultivates a deeper connection and translates to more effective and impactful leadership.

The Dichotomy of Leadership Styles

Leadership by intimidation, characterized by a “my way or the highway” attitude, may yield short-term results, yet has long-term costs. Leaders who embody this aggressive approach may drive immediate performance gains but at the expense of employee well-being and loyalty. In contrast, a leadership style rooted in empathy, support, and personal development encourages longevity, reduces employee turnover, and promotes a healthier work environment.

• Comparing Results: Organizations prosper when leaders appreciate the distinction between motivating by belief in potential versus instilling fear of replacement. While the latter may produce immediate outcomes, the former tends to result in sustainable success and builds a foundation for future growth.
• Evaluating Approaches: It behooves leaders to continuously evaluate the efficacy of their leadership styles and be open to re-strategizing when necessary to create a more positive and productive work culture.

Boeing's Cautionary Tale and the Imperative for Timely Cultural Shifts

The journey of Boeing serves as a sobering example of the consequences that can ensue when a company does not foster a speak up culture in time. The complex dynamics following mergers, such as that with McDonnell Douglas, and the rapid response to competitive pressures led to decisions that ultimately compromised the trust and safety associated with the Boeing brand.

• Learning from the Past: By analyzing the evolution and missteps of organizations like Boeing, leaders can extract vital lessons on the necessity of nurturing an environment where employee voices are welcomed and valued.
• Implementing Proactive Measures: It is not enough to adopt a speak up culture in theory alone; meaningful implementation requires proactive measures, vigilance, and a genuine commitment from all levels of leadership.
• Balancing Innovation with Integrity: As a leader, the drive for innovation must be balanced with ethical considerations and a commitment to quality. Hasty decisions for competitive gain must never overshadow the fundamental values of safety and integrity.

Amplifying Voices: A Leader's Commitment

Leaders are more than just decision-makers or visionaries; they are also custodians of their organization's culture. By encouraging open dialogue and demonstrating a genuine willingness to listen and act on employee concerns, leaders can galvanize their teams and foster an environment of mutual trust and respect.

• Promoting Authentic Conversations: Leaders can implement regular open forums and one-on-ones that invite honest conversation and feedback, showing teams that their insights are valuable and appreciated.
• Solidifying Trust Through Action: When leaders take decisive action based on employee input, it cements trust and underscores the leadership’s commitment to a transparent and responsive culture.
• Navigating Agreement and Disagreement: A leader's ability to engage in both agreement and meaningful disagreement with their team members and peers reflects a dynamic and healthy organizational culture where diverse viewpoints drive collective progress.

Final Thoughts from Shedletzky and Graban

The interactive exchange between Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky and Mark Graban leaves us with a thoughtful meditation on leadership and its profound effects on organizational outcomes. As leaders strive to shape cultures and drive innovation, it becomes imperative to anchor their approaches in empathy, active listening, and a deep-seated belief in the potential of their people

Automated Transcript (May Contain Mistakes)

Mark Graban:
I'm happy to be joined by our guest, Stephen Shedletzky, or shed to his friends. I'm going to call him Shed. We're barely friends, but I'm going to call him shed. You can too. He is a sought-after speaker, coach, and advisor.

Mark Graban:
He's a thought leader on psychological safety in the workplace, so listeners know that is a favorite topic of mine and the show here. Shed has led hundreds of keynote presentations, works, shops and leadership development programs around the world. He is the author of a relatively new book titled Speak-Up Culture:When Leaders Truly Listen, People Speak Up. So you can read his full bio on the website shedinspires.com.

Mark Graban:
He worked with bestselling author Simon Sinek, and then has been working on his own and doing other things. He graduated from the Richard Ivey School of Business, received a coaching certification from the Coactive Training Institute and lives shed lives in Toronto with his wife and two young children. So Shed, welcome to the show. How are you?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Thank you so much. Delighted to be here with you. I'm doing well, better now that we're here and on.

Mark Graban:
Good. Well, I'm happy you're here. There's a lot to talk about. I've been enjoying the book and we can scratch the surface on some of the core themes there. But before we do that, can't let you off of the hook.

Mark Graban:
Off the hook with the usual question here, shed, the different things you've done and worked on, what would you say is your favorite mistake?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So as soon as I agreed to doing this podcast with you, or you invited me and I graciously accepted, I was pondering this and my favorite mistake. So my first job out of biz school was with an oil and gas company in a rotational leadership development program. And I very much joined not because of the industry, but because of leadership. I was fascinated with a topic I still am of what makes great leaders, how great leaders behave. And I joined the organization post merger, and my first day on the job, 1000 people were let go as I was walking in.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
It was a tumultuous environment and I came to realize quite objectively that the employee value proposition that I was recruited on was not the same as the employee value proposition. I joined because things changed and I didn't have an amazing experience as an employee there, which it's not that the leaders were evil, it was a tumultuous time. And I've come to learn about myself that bureaucracy and red tape aren't really my thing, which doesn't make me a great candidate for large organizations unless I can break a lot of rules. And so my favorite mistake was I was fired on my one year anniversary from that role, not because I was a low performer, but because I was mentoring a number of interns, a disproportionate number of which turned down full time job opportunities, citing conversations with me. And so that's my George Costanza moment.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Favorite mistake of when I was called into my boss's boss's office and let go. I kind of said, yeah, that's probably the right call.

Mark Graban:
Oh, my goodness. Did you feel like, intentionally or inadvertently, you were maybe trying to scare away the interns or steer them in another direction, or were you just shooting straight with them about.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
I think I was doing a couple of things. I think I was a little disgruntled. I think I was shooting straight. There was a delta in my experience between what was being promised and what was being lived, and I felt it was responsible to point some of those out. Now I remember there was one person in particular that didn't appreciate it, and that was fine.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
But there were other people who really did, who felt as though I was giving an accurate portrayal. But so began my career as a bit of a corporate rebel. Mark.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. I appreciate that you were speaking candidly now, and we'll delve more in the psychological safety. You spoke up. Did you feel safe or did you just not care about the consequences?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
That's funny. I felt good in the fact that I wasn't gossiping. I wasn't speaking poorly about anyone. I was speaking about my own experience, and I was owning my own experience. And I had realized early in my career what I really wanted to do and focus on.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So I remember sort of the first. I started the role in September of 2009. I took a little bit of time off over the holiday season, winter holiday season, over Christmas, and what have you. And I remember I went back into the office January 2010 with like, I'm going to own my role. I'm going to enjoy this.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
I tried to talk myself into, this is going to be great. I'm going to own this. I was working on one project that had a decent amount of responsibility for, which ended up going well. But I remember, Mark, I was sitting in my cubicle. The office was quiet because it was probably January 4 or something, and a lot of people were still off.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And I couldn't go on Facebook because that wasn't allowed. But I could go on LinkedIn. And on LinkedIn, a colleague of mine, Kendra Reddy, made a post that said, what is your organization doing to engage and retain millennial employees and I went, oh, my God, they're not. My initial reaction was, I don't feel that I'm being engaged or retained in a meaningful way. And so I wrote to her, and unbeknownst to me, she was about to speak at a conference and wanted to gain some input.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And I wrote such a passionate, detailed response to her, I think I've looked it up years since. And she said, I'm speaking at this conference. Do you want to come speak, too? And so two weeks later, I found myself speaking at this conference. And so I began to get great awareness of what I really wanted to be doing, which is on the engagement, inspiration, fulfillment side of work.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah. I had strong inclinations that I was not going to be there for the rest of my career. I was already looking for other things. I was already following some passion. So I think, like a good second term president, I felt as though I didn't have much to lose.

Mark Graban:
So if I hear you right, you were kind of grappling with. I think it's a common challenge, and I've faced this at different points in my career, earlier and later on. Should I stick it out? Is it going to get better? Can I make it better?

Mark Graban:
Do I have an obligation versus the hell with it? This just isn't a fit. Let's move on. But it sounds like they made that decision for you.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
They did make that decision for me, and I was very lucky. My expenses were low at the time. I was living at my parents home still. So unlike some others in the same circumstance, I felt as though I had some leash and room to follow and pursue passions, which I know, given whatever point we are in our lives or careers, we may not feel that. I think that gave me some added courage or added less care, but, yeah.

Mark Graban:
When you're younger, in a way, there's less to lose. There's been less built up.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Your life didn't have a mortgage yet.

Mark Graban:
As opposed to people who are further along mid career. And that sad situation where people feel kind of stuck or trapped, they can't speak up safely.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Or there are repercussions or there are repercussions for speaking up. The potential repercussions feel big.

Mark Graban:
Yeah, but it's easier said than done. Depending on life circumstances, we'll just go find a new job someplace else. The job market is good, or maybe it's not at the time.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah.

Mark Graban:
Go ahead.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Well, no, I think you're bang on that because of where I was in my career and didn't have kids, didn't have a mortgage, I was very prepared for the cost.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. And I won't get too sidetracked on the story, but my first job out of undergrad was not a safe environment. And speaking up back to themes of your book wasn't always worthwhile either. But when I knew I was a short timer, I was leaving to go to my business school program. I started speaking up more because I'm like, well, I'm quitting, so they're not going to fire me.

Mark Graban:
I didn't become, I think, reckless in speaking up, but it took away some of that fear in terms of like, well, what's the worst that's going to happen here? And I don't know if it led to any better outcomes. Again, was it worth it?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah. Well, it's funny you mentioned that, because during that tumultuous time and change of that organization, my experience of most of the leaders there wasn't great because I felt that too many of them were connected with what they had to lose. So they weren't being overly transparent, and they were showing up in ways that I perceived as more self protection than truly service oriented for the business and the folks in it. There was one person that I experienced as an amazing leader, and it happened to be my direct leader. And the reason he was so one of the reasons I'd like to believe that he would have been this great anyway, but one of the reasons was he was retiring.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
He had six months left, but he knew everyone and he was vouching for them and fighting for them and communicating with as much transparency as he could that was appropriate. But I had a front row seat to, again, a second term president that had nothing to lose. It was really inspiring seeing how much he was caring and fighting for his sphere of influence and care. It was brilliant. Yeah.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
I remember it to this day. Him coming from these full day meetings when you're speaking about people on a whiteboard and moving them, and he was vouching for them hard and it was exhausting. But it was a front row. Well, not a front row seat, but I got to see some of his work in action and it was great.

Mark Graban:
Yeah, just touching. And that was some of my experience. Even in a really crappy environment, there can be some great leaders. And you're making me think of one or two key people who were in a similar kind of mode, and they were looking out for others and not just running out their own career clock. But before we talk more about the book, mean, what came next then?

Mark Graban:
So were you actively thinking, how do I not put myself in another situation where there's a delta between what's promised and what's real, or was this a job with Simon Sinek, or was there something else in between?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So not. Yeah, I already started interviewing with a few other opportunities in spring summer 2010, and nothing quite hit. And I mean, I didn't even have a year of experience in my career. It was essentially going to look for another entry level job. Got laid off or got fired that day.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
I played tennis with my brother in the afternoon. It was fantastic. And then I began to get really clear on what I wanted to do, and I started doing it anyway, speaking and facilitating. I started doing some speaking on the fact that I grew up with a stutter and overcame that fear of public speaking, started to get interested in leadership coaching. So I was starting to make some progress.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And at the same time I was also working with a career coach as part of my little severance package, which was fantastic. And I got another job doing change management consulting at one of the big consulting companies, and it was a good experience. I learned a lot more, but I still didn't feel that I was on the right side of the human equation. It still felt like I was doing risk mitigation, cost lowering type of consulting, as opposed to the more expansive, generative building side of leadership and hr around purpose, leadership fulfillment, those pieces. So I did another quick stint at that consulting firm, which was a good experience.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And then I sort of used the money I earned there to fund my leadership coaching training and then left that job by choice and then started taking on some one on one coaching clients, some more speaking gigs and facilitation gigs, but sort of so began about my own two year version of kind of doing my own MBA, which was things didn't move as quickly as I wanted them to. I wasn't earning enough. I was moving in the right direction. But then I had the opportunity to meet with Simon and his team and joined his team and then had an amazing ten plus year career journey with them. And I still do some associate work for them, sharing Simon's ideas with start with y and infinite game.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
But the majority of my work is now with my own speak up cultural practice.

Mark Graban:
Yes. So I think I stated that accurately in introducing you, right? Not a.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Okay, yeah. Which, which piece in particular? That I still do some stuff with them.

Mark Graban:
Yeah, that you work independently. That's what I remembered from when we spoke before.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah. So I still do some stuff with them, which is fantastic. And the majority of my practice is my own now.

Mark Graban:
Okay, well, I hope you would have spoken up had I made a mistake. But am I creating a speak up culture in this setting called the my favorite mistake podcast? I can only hope so, yes. So far so good.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah.

Mark Graban:
So the book, again, the main title of it is speak up culture. I'm now shed about halfway through it, I did read a couple of more chapters since we first spoke, really enjoying the book and familiar themes, but I love some of the words and the framing that you put to this. So I think we get to dig into it a little bit here, but I'm a little torn. I'll take your guidance on this. I want to ask, how do you define a speak up culture?

Mark Graban:
But I also feel like we should start with why a speak up culture? Maybe that's intertwined, or how do you want to address that?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Oh, fun. So why a speak up culture? Well, I'll start with how do we define it and then why it's important. I think that might be the best way to do it. So I fully admit, Mark, when I first started writing, I thought I was just rebranding psychological safety.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
A friend of mine, Tiziana Casciaro, who's a professor at the University of Toronto, I shared her the first few chapters with her and she said, are you writing different things or are you writing things differently? And I thought, ok, I think I'm writing things differently. But as we got into the work, I actually think there's a nuance with speak up culture that may not be present in psychological safety alone. So the way I define it is a speak up culture is an environment in which it feels both psychologically safe and worth it to speak up with ideas, even if they're half baked feedback to help one another grow. Concerns, disagreements, mistakes, all the things.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And we do those not without fear, but with fear and feeling that what's on the other side of the fear is worth it. So the distinction and why I believe a speak up culture is not only psychological safety is the worth it component.

Mark Graban:
Right.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Because psychological safety, as Edmondson defines it, it's an environment in which the members of teams feel that it is safe to take interpersonal risk.

Mark Graban:
Right?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
But if I feel safe to take interpersonal risk, but after taking interpersonal risk, nothing changes, and I still feel safe to take interpersonal risk and nothing changes. It's how many times do I go back to that dry well until I'm like, I might feel safe, but it's just not worth it. And apathy sets in. Yes, now at least we have safety, but if we don't have safety, and we don't have worth it. That's an unhappy marriage of fear and apathy, which is that bottom left piece of the two by two matrix that I'm sure you've come across.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
But it's interesting that there may not be psychological safety, but there is a perception of impact, and there is worth it. This is Ed Pearson at Boeing. This is Dr. Kimberly McClure at the US coast Guard. Those two folks didn't feel safe speaking up, but they did so out of necessity and out of, and we use.

Mark Graban:
The word whistleblower usually for people like somebody in a hospital who knows they might get fired, but they speak up about a surgeon anyway, for example.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah. So whistleblowing is, my understanding of it is it's an external act.

Mark Graban:
Fair enough.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So whistleblowing is either after attempts on the inside to go through appropriate channels and nothing happens, still, they then go outside of the organization, post on a LinkedIn, go to Congress, whatever it might be. Whistleblowing is actually the external letting the world know Ford Pinto isn't. So that's what it is. It's an environment in which it's safe and worth it. And I think it's those two.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And why it's important is it's not only good for the health and well being of your people, it's good for business, for creativity, for productivity, for trust and innovation and everything in between and beyond, you gain from the perspective of more people. There's often then the counter question of, well, is there a time when it isn't appropriate to speak up? Because I don't want to hear everyone's opinions, but everything that's like, yeah, you can set boundaries and you can set deadlines and timelines and parameters, but if someone is holding on to something that can either mitigate a risk, create greater safety, or get to a better outcome, wouldn't you want to hear it? And wouldn't you want to create the environment where that truth, that idea is both encouraged and rewarded.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. Does it matter sometimes how we speak up tips that you've learned along the way to have maybe an unpopular or disagreeing message be heard and maybe more considered to come across as not a complainer, but somebody who has a well articulated, solid, different opinion.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yes. So these are ideas. I don't know if I put both of these ideas in the book. I know I didn't do one of them. So these are ideas I've come up with since the book came out.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So one, I call it the speak up spectrum, and the other is an analogy of a transmission. So what? A speak up culture is. So, first and foremost, speak up is a culture, not an instruction. I can't say speak up if I haven't helped to create the environment in which it's safe and worth it.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Now, a speak up culture is one in which we speak up with tact, decency, respect, situational awareness, emotional intelligence. Then exists this spectrum of what? A speak up culture or what? Speaking up appropriately isn't. What it isn't is.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
It isn't sucking up. So speak up is not suck up. That's hogging air. Right. And that's speaking up to be seen.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
That's speaking up of boss says or corporate culture says. So I'm going to do it all the time. No, that's not an act of service, that's an act of selfishness. And the feedback to that individual is, hey, pick your spots and do more work elevating the voice of others rather than elevating your own voice. Yeah, so that's one scenario.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
On the other end of the spectrum, a speak up culture is not a hall pass to be a jerk. Right. Well, we have a speak up culture. I'm just going to speak my mind. Well, there are consequences if you speak up in a way that is not appropriate, isn't respectful, and isn't done at the right time and at the right place with the right people and in the right way.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So there's a nice standard that's actually credited to Craig Ferguson of the comedian, the scottish comedian. He has a whole stand up bit on this. I think, unbeknownst to him, he made great management theory. It's, does this need to be said by me right now? Which is a nice little litmus test.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
This needs to be said by me but not right now. Take it offline. This needs to be said not by me, but either now or later. Yeah, that's a really interesting one. This needs to be said right now, but not by me.

Mark Graban:
Yes, it is very interesting. I'm going to go find the clip. I have gotten in trouble because of all three of those things where the answer probably would have been, no, it didn't need to be said not necessarily by me, not necessarily right now. And yeah, I've heard people push back when I teach about psychological safety and somebody inevitably we talk about, well, are you able to be your authentic self? And somebody never asks it this way.

Mark Graban:
Exactly these words. But, well, what if my authentic self is being an asshole who tramples over people all the time? I should be allowed to be that. You said that. But there are consequences that that behavior that they may feel safe to do is going to make others feel less safe to speak up, perhaps?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yes. Well, it's. Yes, it's. The two things can be true at the same time. We want you to show up as your authentic self and we want you to live within the values of the organization.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So if your authentic self is trampling over people, you either need to work on your authentic self or go to an environment where that is okay, which I don't know how many that should be okay. If it is okay, it probably isn't so healthy. But this is where I think there's nuance in how we communicate. So like I said, it isn't hall pass to be a jerk. Well, what happens if someone shows up and was a jerk, either intentionally or unintentionally?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So one, if someone speaks up with something that's valid, but does it at an inappropriate time or in an inappropriate way, you can still reward them for the intent, the positive intent, but you can provide feedback and coaching on the behavior and the impact of that behavior. And there are some folks who either because of lack of awareness and development or maybe neurodiversity, right where they show up and they are rude or they're an ass. But it wasn't on purpose. It's a growth opportunity. But if we completely shut it down, you're actually inadvertently chipping away at a speak up culture.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So coach on the feedback. Provide feedback and coaching on the behavior and the impact, but still reward the intent. If there's a positive intent. The other thing is for us to treat ourselves not as automatic transmissions, but as manual transmissions. Thinking of cars though, in an automatic transmission there are often different gears, they go on their own.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
A manual transmission, you change it on your own. So instead of thinking of speaking up as park drive and reverse, or reverse would be, I guess flight drive would be fight and park is freeze and oscillation between fight and flight. Know that you have multiple gears within drive. So just because it's speak up, you can be mindful and you can say, I think I'm about to say share something unpopular and I'm doing it because I think it's going to get us to where we need to go.

Mark Graban:
Right?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Permission to share? Try not to step on toes, but I think this truth is going to help us so we can inoculate before we do the thing.

Mark Graban:
I love what you said there about somebody might accept and reward the idea, the disagreement, the pushback, the challenging of the status quo. At the same time, however, let me give you a little feedback that somebody should also feel safe to give feedback to the ass to use that description. Or if somebody says something offensive, that somebody hopefully feels safe enough or it's worthwhile in your framework to speak up and know that kind of joke's not really funny or appropriate. Yeah, hopefully someone's receiving that as coaching.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah. One of my favorite stories of this came from the late Randy Pouch. So he's the author of the last lecture, an MIT professor who unfortunately passed, I think, at 42 years old with three young kids. And he did this last lecture, which was really a head fake, to leave his kids with a message that he could still parent them while he wasn't there, which is just so touching and beautiful and emotional. But he told a story of when he was, I think, a PhD candidate.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
He was studying under a particular professor and mentor who he really respected. But Randy was this guy who made sure that everyone knew that he was the smartest guy in the room. Arrogance. And his mentor said to him, at a particular moment, when they were in a one on one conversation, he said to Randy, it's a shame you're so talented because most of the rest of the time you're such a jerk. And he said, your talent is only going to get you so far if you continue to behave and ensure that you're the smartest person in the room.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Show up with something to learn, show up with humility. So he tapped into this guy's got ambition, and his arrogance is going to get in the way of his ambition. Let me notch him down a few. So he actually shows up. He took the risk of the feedback not to knock him down, but to actually raise him up and build him up by saying, stop being such a jerk because it's going to get in the way of your success.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. So I want to dig a little bit deeper into some of the themes from the book. And I first learned about you and your book via LinkedIn. I think a friend of mine had known of you in the book and posted a comment and I think, tagged me and said, hey, mark Raven, you would like. You know, I can only hope that there's always a risk with online comments that making a point comes across as being, I don't know, argumentative or dismissive or.

Mark Graban:
It must not have been too bad you were willing to talk to me, and I'm grateful for that. But what I remember was I saw the book speak up culture, and that makes me think of your point of, you can't just declare that it's not an instruction, it's a culture. It's the result of how people behave. And I think I added the comment something along the lines of like, well, maybe we should call this a listen up culture, which puts more of the onus on leaders. And then I'm like, oh, the subtitle of your book does exactly that.

Mark Graban:
I learned something, but tell us more. The subtitle again, when leaders truly listen, people step up.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah, so a couple of things. The good news is we're in both violent agreement.

Mark Graban:
I was glad to discover that.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah, we both agree, which is fantastic. It's funny, there have been a number of moments where friends have passed the book or the message to another friend or a family member, and every now and then, one of those family members is a very senior leader, to which they say, yeah, we have a speak up culture here, which is like, well, says who? The most senior leader? Do you have meaningful feedback, data and survey? Are you frequently challenged on your point of view?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Like, know that as a senior leader, your point of view is but one data point and you better look at a holistic viewpoint. Know, just because you think you have a speak up know. Bravo. That's called the subtitle. So what's funny?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Mark is the first drafted title for the book. I called it listen down, which everyone says, listen up. But my experience is that great leaders actually listen down within their organizations. Now, I changed it for two reasons. One is down is a negative word, and I think it's better to have more positive words.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And two, it felt pedantic or authoritative or too top down. But it's funny that you said listen up. It's like, well, it's also listen down.

Mark Graban:
Well, if you flip the pyramid, then it is listening up. There we go.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Oh, there you go. That's good. Sure. So, yes, it's called speak up culture. And I owe a hat tip to sue Barlow, who worked with Jim Collins on good to great, who gave me that frame, because I think in the original subtitle, I put speak up or speak up culture in the subtitle.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And she's like, just make that the title. So, yeah, the subtitle is when leaders truly listen, people step up. My editor said, take out the word truly, it's meaningless. It doesn't add any more meaning. It's superfluous, like a vestigial organ.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And I went, no, it's needed because listening is a skill and leaders can listen and use the information they get to manipulate folks and manipulate things. I added in truly, because to me that denotes compassion, when leaders use the skill of listening plus the human attribute of compassion and empathy, that can become a leadership superpower. So I was insistent on including truly because it denotes compassion.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. And just as an aside here, it would be fun to get to know you more and find something we disagree about, because there could be either fun conversation or mutual learning around that. Because I'm reading your book, I'm nodding, and I'm seeing familiar names like Ethan Burris, who I was happy to see you cite, and he's been influential on me of this lesson of fear and futility as being two reasons why people don't speak up. You flipped it then to the positive when they feel safe and it's worth.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Yeah, and I used fear and apathy, but futility, that's a great word to use as well.

Mark Graban:
Unfortunately, there's a nice alliteration that he came up with there at least. Fear and futility. You talk about situation where I think leaders could be unaware of the delta between stated values and reality. Or there's optimism. Years ago, at this point, early in her period as CEO, Mary Barra at GM said, okay, we want this to be a speak up culture.

Mark Graban:
She used those words. And I started my career at GM.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Right?

Mark Graban:
That was that crappy environment I was part of. That was not a speak up culture. And I remember writing a piece. I mean, it sounds like blaming the workers for not speaking up when I know it was not a listen down environment. To use your mean, how often are leaders either just unaware or in active denial that they think the problem is the workers?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So a couple things spring to mind. So one, there's an article out of the Atlantic. It's a few years old, but it's one of my favorite articles. It's called power causes brain damage, and it actually takes MRI scans of senior leaders and critical thinking and empathy. Some of the very things that got them into their role diminish.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And the reason it diminishes is the more senior one gets, the more deference we offer them. Biologically, they are our alphas. They are our senior leaders. Right? And so it means a couple of things.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So one, as a senior leader, the more senior you get, the further away you can get from the truth. And you have to work especially hard to get it, receive it, and when it comes to actually reward it and not punish it, because if you punish it, it's just not going to keep coming. And then the other is, leaders have to know that their whisper is a shout and their tiptoes are stomps. So I'm often asked, who's responsible for a speak up culture, the senior leaders or the employees? And the answer is yes, everyone is responsible.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
But leaders are at least 51% responsible. At least they're not 99. That would be a codependent relationship, but it's at least 51, meaning that there's a disproportionate because of the influence that they hold. Now, I'm assuming we would also agree on the point that change often lives and dies in the middle of organizations.

Mark Graban:
Sure.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Where senior leaders have these ideas, maybe even strategically, they're right. But there's either a detachment from reality or the work of making it shift and happen. Very much happens with those middle managers who are the only folks inside of an organization who have multidirectional influence. They can influence up, side to side and down. I've seen organizations succeed and fail, whether or not those folks in the middle are actually listened to.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
When you, as a senior leader, have someone who takes the risk and speaks up and shares some hard and honest feedback, you have to take that really seriously and put any narcissism aside and ramp up humility and just believe them. Just believe them and find truth. Because, yeah, if we make a speak up culture, other people's problems, you don't have a speak up culture.

Mark Graban:
So maybe as we wrap up here, and I'm going to bring up two topics that could probably each merit their own 30 minutes that we don't have this time. Yeah. Elon Musk at his different companies seems to not engender a speak-up culture, but he's been successful anyway. Does that disprove the power of speak up culture? Or is it a question of, you can be successful until you're not?

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
I think it's mean. I look at Elon, and Elon is definitely a rebel. Doesn't challenges authority. I put him in an archetype similar to a Steve Jobs has vision, pushes people unrealistic, and isn't a nurturing leader. I think there's a difference.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
We often say, I think there's a nuance between visionary and leader.

Mark Graban:
Sure.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And you don't need to have vision to be a leader necessarily. You need to believe in and follow, but you don't need to be visionary. Now, you can be visionary but not a leader, which means you have vision, but you don't necessarily know how to lead or treat people. And there's room for that. I think we ought to work on our leadership abilities, but the room for that is to safeguard yourself or check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And get people around you who can actually lead and manage and create safe distance while not letting you off the hook for your foibles, you still got to work on them. So, yeah, I think Elon has been successful to this point because of vision and radical, interesting ideas, but it'll begin to get in the way if it isn't well managed. Here's the thing that people described with Jobs, and jobs were pretty good at this. He said, I'm going to be hard on you. I'm not going to treat you so well, but I can guarantee you I'm going to take you places, and this is going to be the ride of your life.

Mark Graban:
Sure.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And Musk is a similar type of leader.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. And people do respond to that, whether it's a leader… football coach. In my case, it was a marching band director because I didn't play football. You don't always like them because they're challenging you and pushing you, but I think you would succeed. The thought experiment that we can't prove out is I think you would be more successful if you didn't have such a record of firing people who.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
There's. There's two versions of that. There's Mark, I believe in you, and I'm going to be hard on you because I believe in your potential. There's that version. There's another version of, I'm going to be hard on you because if you can't do it, the next person will.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Good luck. And that latter one can work for a time in a short period of time, but it's a finite game rather than the infinite. You're going to burn through people, as opposed to, I think you can challenge based on relationship and what you know of them and their potential, which takes leadership, because that can't scale. You can't push and challenge someone if you don't know what makes them tick and what their potential is. You can only do that with effective leadership.

Mark Graban:
And I've thrived in the former of those scenarios of somebody pushing me because they believed in my potential or saw more potential than I thought was there, and that ends up being appreciated. Okay, then we may have to leave this as just a thought experiment for the listener. You mentioned a name from Boeing earlier, and Boeing CEO is now saying, okay, we want employees to speak up. And I read this, I'm like, that hasn't been the case so far. That's terrifying to hear them at this stage in 2024 saying, that's what needs to happen.

Mark Graban:
And I know I've got to let you get yeah.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
So my response to that is the right headline, about 13 years too late. If not about when did the merger with McDonald-Douglas happen? 90s, right. Late 80s, early. 90s, right headline, 13 years too late.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
In 2011, as we both know, American Airlines called up Boeing, saying we needed a new single-lane plane. And they went, give us some time. And they said no. And Boeing went, okay. And they just gave a plane that hadn't been meaningfully updated since 1967, a facelift that was an unaerodynamic facelift.

Mark Graban:
Right.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
And that's on the max. So. Right headline, way too late. And I have, continue to have significant concerns with Boeing commercial.

Mark Graban:
Yeah, well, hey, we can keep talking about that on LinkedIn. Invite the listener to come and do the same. We'll find something we disagree with at some point here. So I've really enjoyed this. Shed.

Mark Graban:
Stephen Shevletzky oh, see, that's the speed bump. That's why you go by shed. Stephen's easy. Stephen Schedletszy I probably said that wrong every time I've tried. Except for there website again, is shedinspires.com.

Mark Graban:
The book I really recommend it is called speak up culture. When leaders truly listen, people step up. Shed, this has been great. Thank you.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Thank you, Mark. I look forward to both agreeing and disagreeing with you in meaningful ways in the future. A joy. Glad we're now new friends. Look forward to staying in touch.

Mark Graban:
Likewise. Thanks.

Stephen “Shed” Shedletzky:
Cheers.