Bouncing Back from Mistakes and the Importance of Diversity in Casting: Jazzy Collins, CSA

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My guest for Episode #241 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Jazzy Collins, CSA, a Casting Director who holds the honor of being the first Black two-time Emmy® nominee in the Outstanding Reality Casting category. 

She has worked for hit reality shows including Lizzo's Watch Out For The Big Grrls (Amazon), The Circle (Netflix), The Traitors (Peacock), The Bachelor and The Bachelorette (ABC), Family or Fiancé (OWN) and Love Island (CBS). 

She has been at the forefront of the movement calling for diversity and inclusion in the entertainment industry, published in Deadline, E! News, ET Canada, Women’s Health, and beyond.

Amid her success, she has been a tireless advocate for diversity and inclusion in the industry, a topic her work frequently brings to the fore. As time went on, however, Jazzy began questioning her career trajectory. Deciding to branch out, she transitioned into digital talent management, believing it akin to her casting work. Jazzy quickly recognized it wasn't her calling. After a challenging stint in talent management, she decided it was time to return to her first love: casting.

In this episode, we discuss her career mistake, how she bounced back, and what she learned. We also discuss mistakes made by the producers of “The Bachelor” and “The Bachelorette” when it comes to DEI and representation. Read about her open letter that called out the popular franchise.

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Questions and Topics:

• When did you realize that talent management wasn’t your space??
• Fewer gatekeepers – more diversity shining through in digital platforms?
• How does one end up working in casting? 
• The Bachelor — Jazzy's open letter about Matt James as the first Black bachelor, after Rachel Lindsay as the first Black Bachelorette
• How casting can go wrong — Lee and Rachel’s season
• Problems caused by lack of diversity behind the scenes (or in a Board)
• Tell us about the thought process for deciding to send the open letter… posted it to Instagram and FB — reporters picked it up
• Did you ever worry or wonder if the letter was a mistake? Did you hesitate to send it? 
• How did you gauge the reaction to it?
• Before the letter, how did you first try speaking out internally? It sounds like you were punished for it…
• What reaction did you get? Had other people come forward…
• Ignoring the trolls??
• Good move or cynical move to cast Matt James in the summer after the George Floyd murder?
• What are you working on next that’s new and fresh?
• How does somebody get cast on a reality show?

Scroll down to find:

• Video version of the episode
• How to subscribe
• Quotes
• Full transcript

Find Jazzy on social media:

• Instagram — and here
• LinkedIn

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Episode Summary

Steering The Way: A Reflection on Jazzy Collins' Impactful Journey in the Entertainment Industry

In the competitive landscape of the entertainment industry, Jazzy Collins carved out a notable niche for herself. An awe-inspiring Black woman, she broke new ground as a two-time Emmy nominee in the Outstanding Reality Casting category – an accolade none can take for granted. Collins' path to success was laden with hit reality shows like Lizzo's Watch Out for the Big Grrrls, The Circle, The Traitors, The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, Family or Fiancé, and Love Island.

Evidently, reality casting was her forte, but Collins' contribution encompassed being an ardent advocate for diversity and inclusion in the entertainment industry. She persistently shed light on these critical issues, earning space in publications like Deadline, E! News, ET Canada, Women's Health, and more.

A Shift in Career: Exploring New Avenues

As the years rolled by, Collins' appetite for professional growth led her to question her trajectory in casting. Living up to her spirit of willingness to tread uncharted waters for new experiences, she decided to delve into the world of digital talent management. She had successfully worked with talent for over a decade at this point, making this transition seem like a logical progression.

Armed with the belief that digital talent management was similar to casting – managing talent day in and day out – Collins made the shift. Following her decision, she began working with a firm that focused on managing the careers of digital creators, who ranged from producing videos to influencing on TikTok. However, soon enough, she realized this wasn't her calling after all.

The Return to Casting

The realization that Collins belonged in casting dawned on her after she noticed the strict rules and lack of fluidity in the realm of talent management. The pressure to succeed at all times with little to no room for errors caused Collins to reevaluate her decision. Thus, she made the pivotal choice to return to her original career: casting.

Once back, Collins had to rebuild her network, reach out to her contacts, and confirm her re-entry into the industry. This phase may have initially appeared as a back step, but it ultimately provided Collins an opportunity to recreate her identity in the industry. She formed Force Perspective with her husband, a company dedicated to helping underrepresented content creators, and developing new formats while still casting.

Challenging the Status Quo

Despite returning to her comfort zone, Collins wasn't planning to sit back quietly. During her tenure on The Bachelor, she was the only Black casting producer and had experienced her share of microaggressions – culminating in her decision to part ways with the show.

But she didn't leave quietly. Upon hearing about the casting of Matt James, the first Black Bachelor, Collins wrote an open letter criticizing the show's lack of diversity. The letter was a call to action, aiming to start a conversation about diversity in the casting community and the entertainment industry at large. Despite some backlash, Collins' effort largely received positive responses, reinforcing her journey as a trailblazer in the industry. Her strides towards diversity and inclusivity in the entertainment industry continue to pave the way for many to come.

The Road Less Taken: Looking Beyond Casting

In the world of casting, shows can sometimes lean towards tokenism rather than true representation – a harsh reality that Collins addresses. The responsibility of casting often extends beyond just choosing the right faces; it involves introducing a diverse range of characters that share a variety of experiences, traditions, and approaches to life.

Collins shares that while working on some shows, she sometimes felt as though she were just filling a quota, rather than providing a platform for people who deserved to be on the show. She observed that while quotas sometimes included a token person of each racial group, this shallow representation fails to reflect the true breadth of diversity – and this bothered her.

By merely satisfying diversity quotas, casting teams were depriving viewers of the chance to understand the rich diaspora within each community. Collins implores casting teams to take a good look at the decisions they make and question if they are truly proud of the cast diversity or are just taking the easy route.

The Strategies Towards a Genuine Diverse Cast

But how do we overcome these challenges towards a genuinely diverse cast? One solution lies in the casting process. With a larger cast of varied individuals, it becomes impossible to isolate a ‘type' and reject it – creating a fairer environment for competitors.

This focus on equality goes a long way in addressing Collins's concerns about contestants on shows like The Bachelor. She pushes for the mentality that everyone should be given a fair chance, instead of being a token representative of their race – a consideration she believes other casting directors may share.

Unfortunately, the casting team's responsibility doesn't end with cast selection; there's also the onus to ensure that individuals don't feel like they're tokens kept for appearances. This, too, is a crucial part of creating a truly representative and fair show.

Venturing into New Formats and Communities

Collins' journey has seen her work with many experience-rich formats and shows. Among these is Love Island, noteworthy for its diversity and inclusivity. Love Island is a dating-themed reality show – a diversion from the usual story of people dating for love and marriage. Shows like these offer a fun escape for viewers while providing insight into diverse relationships.

Reflections on The Bachelor provided a fresh perspective. Despite watching it passively because his wife was a fan, the interviewer started perceiving the dynamics of the show differently. Collins' open letter and outspokenness about their shortcomings when it came to diversity resulted in him becoming more aware of how underrepresented groups are often presented in media. This dialogue about diversity triggers the need for change and challenges the status quo, providing a catalyst for inclusive and diverse content.

Looking Ahead: Innovative Dimensions and Diverse Narratives

Having stamped her influence in casting, Collins now looks to break new ground. She dismissed the idea of staying with the conventional format asking if she wanted to work on “The Golden Bachelor”, a show where the lead is in his 70s. Instead, Collins decided to focus on developing new formats that are fresh, fun, and engaging.

While reflecting on what she's working on next, Collins revealed that she's currently involved in a varied range of projects. Citing “the Golden Bachelor” as a closed chapter, she's actively working on food formats, shows with an LGBTQ+ narrative, and projects led by underrepresented directors.

In line with her commitment to providing equal opportunities, Collins concluded her interview by advising aspiring contestants looking for a break in reality TV. She suggested starting with a connection to an unscripted casting director and expanding from there, maintaining a distinctly grounded and practical approach that has characterized her journey in the entertainment industry.

With her recent foray into digital talent management, Collins continues to be a formidable force in addressing and fighting for diversity, equal representation, and inclusivity in the industry. Her seasoned perspective and relentless endeavor provide countless underrepresented entertainers with a beacon of hope and direction.

Automated Transcript (May Contain Mistakes)

Mark Graban:
Well, hi, everybody. Welcome back to my favorite mistake. I'm Mark Graban. Our guest today is Jazzy Collins. She is a casting director.

Mark Graban:
She holds the honor of being the first Black two time Emmy nominee in the Outstanding Reality Casting category. So Jazzy has worked for hit reality shows, including Lizzo's Watch out for the Big Grrrls, the Circle, the Traitors, the Bachelor, and the Bachelorette, Family or Fiance, and Love Island. So beyond that work, Jazzy has been at the forefront of the movement calling for diversity and inclusion in the entertainment industry, and she's been featured or published in publications including Deadline, E! News, ET Canada, Women's Health, and more. So with that, Jazzy, welcome to the podcast.

Mark Graban:
How are you?

Jazzy Collins:
I am good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited. How are you doing?

Mark Graban:
I'm doing great. I'm excited to have this conversation of the different shows that you've been a part of. As people might remember, I had a previous guest, Zak Waddell, in episode 214, who was a contestant on the Bachelorettes, and I guess, is that the right word to say? Contestant?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah. Contestant. Yeah, that's correct.

Mark Graban:
So we talked a little bit about that. I know we'll get to hear Jazzy's perspectives on what goes on behind the scenes and getting people onto shows like that. So we'll come back to that a little bit later. I do have to ask, and I hope that it's not a mistake to do so. Is Jazzy a given name or a nickname?

Jazzy Collins:
It's a nickname, but I haven't gone by my full name, which is Jasmine, my government name, since, gosh, I was, like, ten. So it's been my name forever. And I actually thought about changing my name to Jazzy legally, but I just never actually ended up doing it, so it's okay.

Mark Graban:
So you got that nickname as a girl. Was it because of music or dancing or both?

Jazzy Collins:
I danced. I did dance, yeah. I danced for, gosh, about 1516 years, and I was competitive dancing. So I was traveling across the country doing jazz, tap, lyrical, ballet. Just about everything you can name it.

Jazzy Collins:
And Jazzy kind of just fit. Cool.

Mark Graban:
Well, I guess not a mistake to ask, then. I guess that worked out okay.

Jazzy Collins:
No, that was not a mistake.

Mark Graban:
So on the topic of mistakes, though, I know you're prepared to answer the question we always start off with here. Of the different things you've done professionally. Jazzy, what would you say is your favorite mistake?

Jazzy Collins:
My favorite mistake was me actually leaving the industry and trying something new for six months.

Mark Graban:
Tell us about that.

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, I've been doing casting for well over ten years by this point, and things were slowing down in the industry. I was just having a kid, and a lot of things were going through my mind of, like, what should I do next? I feel like I don't really have an upward trajectory that I was looking to find. I think it's because I had that Emmy nomination. I was like, okay, well, we're fine.

Jazzy Collins:
There's nothing really more to this. So I tried something new by doing digital talent management. So I worked with a firm and I thought it was very similar to casting in that you are working with talent here in, day in and day out, but it's a little bit different in that you're actually managing their career. Working with digital creators is a completely different beast. It's making sure people are hitting all of their deadlines when it comes to a lot of their videos that they're doing.

Jazzy Collins:
A lot of the people that I were working with was TikTok influencers. So it was overall a very interesting world to be in. But then I realized while I was there was this was not my space. It was not something that I ever saw myself ever trying or doing. And I actually learned that I don't actually work really well in a space that is so strict.

Jazzy Collins:
And the thing about casting, you have a lot more fluidity, and there's none of that in management side. It's either do or die. You're making mistakes, then you're out. And that was not the world I ever wanted to live in. So it was a mistake for me to leave the industry for a little bit.

Jazzy Collins:
I had to build back up all of my contacts because they all thought I was done. And now I came back and I'm doing better than ever, but it took a minute. Well, good.

Mark Graban:
Well, I'm glad to hear the end for now, the end of the story for now of things going well. But yeah, gosh, there's, I think, a lot we could dig into, though. I appreciate you telling the story there. Tell us a little bit. I'm curious because I'm an engineer from the Midwest.

Mark Graban:
You're working in the entertainment industry in LA. Very different world. I don't know the entertainment world. And to me, the word casting, I mean, this is going to be a really nerdy technical thing. Casting is like making metal parts of pouring bolts in metal.

Mark Graban:
Yes, totally different thing. Right. So you might ask, well, how does anyone get into that as a career? How does one get into casting in the entertainment industry? Do you start off wanting to be in front of the camera, you talk about being a performer or how do you get into that?

Jazzy Collins:
Well, my story is a lot different from most other people's stories. I thought I wanted to be a producer, so I was already working on set, and I was working on a commercial, and then I realized I hate being on set. I hate being there for 12 hours, 14 hours, days on my feet. And then afterwards I went in for an office PA position, so production assistant position. And it turns out that that act ended up getting taken.

Jazzy Collins:
I didn't have that as an opportunity for me to get that job, but they said, hey, do you have any interest in doing casting? And I was like, sure, I need a job. So I took it, and casting assistant was, like my first step into casting, and I absolutely loved it, and that's why I'm still here today. But I do know that there's two different ways for casting, and I think people need to know that there's obviously the scripted side of it, or you can do the unscripted side. So I predominantly work in the unscripted side.

Mark Graban:
Okay, so we'll come back and explore how some of that works and what you experienced and went through there. So you mentioned looking for an upward trajectory. You went from being a casting assistant to, I guesS, you work in casting. CSA is a casting society.

Jazzy Collins:
Casting Society of America, yes. That's like a collective of casting directors and associates. And.

Mark Graban:
Like, reading about some of your experiences. Again, we'll come back to this more. I think with the Bachelor or the Bachelorette, there is a casting director. I guess the casting people report up to is casting director kind of then like the top of the food chain, I guess, in that profession, yeah.

Jazzy Collins:
Correct. So you have the casting director underneath that, you have a casting producer, you have an associate, and then you have an assistant. And that's usually how it works for the unscripted side.

Mark Graban:
So I guess trajectories could be moving up to bigger, more successful shows or award winning and then maybe. Do people ever move then from casting into other producer type roles if they're looking to do something different?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, I think you can cap out a casting director if you want to do casting, but you have the ability to be in house somewhere. So you can work at a production company or you can work directly with network as VP of talent. That would be an upward trajectory, but those are very few and far between. Or you can have your own company. That's basically the upward trajectory.

Jazzy Collins:
But some people also move into the development side where they'll develop their own shows. They'll cast their own shows, and then they'll sell it, which is kind of what I'm doing now.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. So then how far into that digital talent management job did you start, at least having an inkling of like, oh, maybe this is a mistake, right? Because that can be hard to admit, or do you think, do I need to stick with it? When do you decide? Can you tell us about some of that thought process?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, I would say it was about three months in. I realized it wasn't for me, the culture was not my favorite. It was very frat bro culture is the best way to put it. It was run by two men, and they weren't really open to having a lot more opinions in the room. And as someone as very outspoken as myself, that obviously I butt heads very easily with that.

Jazzy Collins:
But then I also realized there wasn't an upward trajectory there either. When you're a talent manager, you're just a talent manager, and you just have larger clients, and that's it. So right then and there, I was like, okay, I'm in the same boat that I thought I was getting out of. So why did I do that? Why did I jump ship?

Mark Graban:
So there's that cultural, similar cultural dynamic. When you say frat, bro, I hear white. Is that.

Jazzy Collins:
Yes.

Mark Graban:
Probably everybody else was too, but just to confirm or check that. So I'm curious, were you working with digital talent, people who are Black, people of color? Was that something that you were kind of looking to help work with talents where you could try to help create better opportunities for them, or you kind of worked with who you got assigned to?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah. When I first got there, I had the ability to just basically take over a roster that they gave to me. It was relatively diverse, but I wanted to add to it. So that's what I did. I started adding more creators that normally wouldn't get the opportunity.

Jazzy Collins:
And I think the thing with digital creator, it's such a new atmosphere that people don't really understand, and management can end up being really rough, and people have seen bad managers. People are taking advantage of them. So I didn't want to be that person. I wanted to make sure that I can get them to their North Star or whatever that may be. And I didn't have the building blocks with the company that I was with to be able to build this career into what I want them to have.

Jazzy Collins:
And that's where it all starts. If it all crumbles, know, in the beginning, how are you going to make it any further than now?

Mark Graban:
You know, it's something, know, TikTok or YouTube, that's more social media organic or how does somebody get a following or go viral? I mean, casting or traditional entertainment industry has different gatekeepers, but with newer digital media, is there less of that gatekeeper function where more diversity can shine through, where diverse talent can find bigger audiences? Or does some of the deal making of sponsorships or different partnerships still kind of hold some people back where there's inequities?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, I definitely see a lot more diversity with issues when it comes to partnerships. So we had some great talent, non binary folks that were Black that never had the same opportunities as the white female that was just pushing beauty product and she was doing the same thing that they were doing. So you could definitely see that in the partnerships. But as for virality and getting famous that way you still have the access to do it. The platform still provides that for you.

Jazzy Collins:
It's just the actual companies that are coming through and paying these creators.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. So on that talent management mean, is that kind of a parallel to kind of traditional, you think, know, agencies in, you know, the big, they're big. If someone like me has heard of.

Jazzy Collins:
That, is one of the biggest. So you got these.

Mark Graban:
But is some of that just you say it's very new. Is it still kind of sorting out if like newer players in talent management will sort of dominate that new space or. I wonder if some of the more legacy firms start coming in.

Jazzy Collins:
I think there's going to be maybe like two to three boutique agencies that get to the point of the CAAS. There's a company, Waylar, that they're ahead of the curve the way they are working. They're implementing new tech, they're bringing in partners. If you see that in a boutique, you see that they're going to succeed in the future. But smaller companies where they're not getting up as fast as running and kind of just taking in as many creators as they possibly can.

Jazzy Collins:
Just to say that they have these people on their roster rather than actually servicing them, they're going to end up dying out because all of those creators are going to realize, I'm not getting anything from this management company. I might as well go to the A three s, the CAAs. It doesn't make sense for them.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. So maybe one other question about your story that you shared with us before we move on, it seems like there's this question of was it a mistake to leave casting? Was it a mistake to go into the digital talent management and then maybe tell us a little bit more about kind of decision points of going back, trying to go back into casting and get back in somewhere. And where was that? Or other possibilities.

Mark Graban:
Was there a door number three that you were maybe thinking about?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah. When I had the ability to go, I'm done with this, and I ended up leaving, it was a weird situation for me in that I felt like I was giving up and wasn't trying hard enough because I'm one of those people that are like, I'm going to ride this out into the end and even if it doesn't end up anywhere, I hope I get something out of it. But I knew it wasn't servicing me anymore, so it was time for me to move on. And making that decision was tough. Sending in a letter of resignation, it was just very formal that I'm not used to that kind of environment.

Jazzy Collins:
So me moving and leaving was obviously one of the best decisions. But I learned so much. I learned so much about content creation. I learned about how managers work on that side. It's a little bit different than traditional media, but I also have so much respect for these content creators that I didn't have before.

Jazzy Collins:
They are working their butts off, they are producing, they are editing, they are filming it, they are directing it, and then they're putting an online line for these people to watch and they're doing pumping out content a lot faster than anyone in traditional media could ever do. So that is something that I learned from that. And I don't look at that as a regret. That's why it's a favorite mistake. And now getting back into casting, I had to reach out to all my contacts and be like, hey, I'm back if you need me.

Jazzy Collins:
I basically rebranded myself and I have my own company with my husband called Force Perspective. And we spent time really developing shows for underrepresented content creators, also developing new formats, but we also spend time casting. And that's stuff that I love to do. I'm doing some digital branding, but I'm also doing some unscripted stuff. So with all of that said, I was able to kind of diversify who I was and create a better thing out of it, which is pretty great.

Mark Graban:
That is great. And that's what the show is all about. I wouldn't want to do a show called my biggest Regret. That would be sad, right? But yeah, I'm glad there was some learning and that you were able to bounce back and that the industry didn't slam a door on you because you had walked away.

Mark Graban:
But maybe that's transition point to, I don't know. Would an industry slam a door on you because you write, say, an open letter criticizing or challenging things that need to be challenged? Could you tell us some of that story about your time with the Bachelor franchise and departing and writing that letter? And just real quick, before we get into that, was that the last casting role before you went into digital talent?

Jazzy Collins:
No. Okay.

Mark Graban:
So can you tell us what happened there?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah. So when I first started working at the Bachelor, it know, rose colored glasses. I was very excited to be able to work on such a huge franchise. I was brought on for Rachel Lindsay's season. So that alone, I was really excited because it was the first Black Bachelorette.

Jazzy Collins:
So I was like, finally we get to see something that we haven't seen before, and I have the ability to work on it. That season went over pretty well. I didn't have really any issues within the staff or just how we were casting. And then I started to see things change about the next season and the season afterwards. I was noticing that we were only casting a certain type of women.

Jazzy Collins:
We wouldn't see women, especially Black women, unless they had straightened hair or they had weaves in. And that was something that I would constantly bring up is like, why can't we see this one girl that has natural hair? Why can't we see? And they would just say, it wasn't the Bachelor look. And when I first heard of what the bachelor look was, I took a moment to myself and I was like, what is that supposed to mean?

Jazzy Collins:
And then put two and two together. It's not white enough. And that alone really did not sit well with me casting a show like that. Just any dating show can wear on someone because you're literally spending all of that time just looking at what people look like. And that is tough for just.

Jazzy Collins:
And at that time, I was in my early twenty s, so that was a tough moment for me. But I moved on. I continued to speak up, and I was hit with a lot of microaggressions in the office. I was made fun of for what I was wearing. Someone told me that they wanted to dress like me for Halloween.

Jazzy Collins:
It was getting to the point where I was like, I need to remove myself from the situation until it's going to get bad. It's going to get really bad. So I left, and it was roughly about three years afterwards when they announced Matt James as the next Bachelor. And if you don't watch the Bachelor, Matt James was the first Black Bachelor, which is huge. And I was absolutely terrified to hear that they were going to do that, because if they were doing that to me behind closed doors, what are they going to do to him on a national stage?

Jazzy Collins:
They already embarrassed Rachel Lindsay with Lee, which was horrible.

Mark Graban:
What happened then? Rachel?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah. So Rachel Lindsay had a guy named Lee on the season who came from a more of a racist background and was throwing a lot of racist things on TV for everyone to see, which obviously embarrassed Rachel. So if that's how they handled it the first time, how are they going to handle it when they have a Black Bachelor?

Mark Graban:
So real quick on that, though, I'm curious, because the one thing I talked about with Zach Waddell, Episode 214, he was on the Bachelorette years before you were involved with the show. Like this question of casting, you mentioned for appearance, I may imagine a picture, still photos, some of the first screening, but then there's a question of personality, and I'm asking you to guess, and maybe that's a mistake, but are they trying to find people who would be a good fit for Rachel, or are they looking for controversial characters, even if it's really racist and inappropriate in someone's case?

Jazzy Collins:
I think every show always wants to have the quote unquote villain or just someone that will shake things up. In this scenario right here, I think this is the prime example of how casting can go wrong, by spending time actually getting people that would be a good fit for her, but also thinking that race is funny and that's where it all went wrong, because this could have been the opportunity to have a really poignant and amazing conversation about race and how it is to date interracially or just Black love. And they didn't do that. Instead, they made a mockery of it.

Mark Graban:
Were you the only Black Star?

Jazzy Collins:
I was the only Black casting producer in that office. There were other Black folks that were in the editing side, production side. There's actually one in the EP level, but for them, I was the only one on the casting team.

Mark Graban:
Yeah, but I guess there's a lesson there. Even if you're trying to put together a diverse cast, the producers, I mean, they really do a lot to help kind of move things along, whether it's final decisions on choosing cast members or the things they do to maybe kind of stir up, quote unquote, reality within the show, it goes to show how the makeup, this would be the true, maybe the same thing with any big company. If the board of directors is not very diverse, they're going to have trouble relating to a diverse customer base and steering the company in a direction. Similar thing. I'm guessing with a TV show.

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, exactly that. I think it's really important, which is what something that I do is. I make sure my teams are fully diverse when I'm casting because you're going to have a much different experience than I'm going to have as a different experience. And we want to make sure we see all of that on TV. And I think that's where the Bachelor was falling short.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. So I kind of interrupted your story. Try to let you get back in. I'm curious then some of the thought process that led to writing the letter. And the letter is available online.

Mark Graban:
I can link to it, but if you can kind of give some highlights of the letter, and then I guess the associated question is, how much did you debate? Is it a mistake to send this out or not? In terms of the reaction you would get, the impact it would have on the industry or your own career?

Jazzy Collins:
When I wrote that, that was when Matt James was announced as the Bachelor, I wrote from my feelings based on my experiences, but also a call to action. I knew that they needed to change, and that was the only way that we were going to move forward. So I wrote it up just on my notes app, on my phone, and then I had my husband read it, and I was like, do I post this? Is this something that I want to do? And he's like, just go for it.

Jazzy Collins:
Five people will see it.

Mark Graban:
Well, you might think, does it go too far? Does it not go far enough?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, a lot of back and forth with that. And then I ended up posting it on my Instagram, which also then posted to my Facebook. Lo and behold, I had reporters following me, and I didn't know that. So they picked it up and then kind of just went wild. But once I started getting emails from different news sources and all this stuff, I was like, oh, no, did I just make a horrible mistake by posting about this?

Jazzy Collins:
Because you never know what's going to happen with the news. Are they going to completely turn it? Will I have the opportunity to actually speak? So then I was like, okay, well, we're just going to go for it. We're going to see what's going to happen.

Jazzy Collins:
This is my chance to speak my mind. And I spoke my mind. I was hit with some trolls, which is expected, but for the most part, everyone was really receptive to everything that I said. And I had other people come forward, too, and share their stories while they were there. So it ended up starting a conversation, I think, especially within the casting community and also production.

Jazzy Collins:
And what can we do to move forward.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. So it sounds like you bring up topics like this and there's people that are going to come and just attack you. And I'm not looking to hear details. I'm sure some of the trolling is really ugly, but it sounds like beyond that's got to be easier said than done. Basically, like, ignore the trolls or don't feed the trolls to focus on what you were really trying to influence or who you were trying to influence.

Jazzy Collins:
Right. I mean, the trolls are trolls. Most of it was about, like, not everything is about race is usually what most of them were saying. And it's not about that. It's just about love.

Jazzy Collins:
And I was just like, do you hear yourself? At the end of the day, the people that want the love are not being represented. Right. So I just ignored that. I actually left them there.

Jazzy Collins:
I didn't delete anything. I feel like that was a moment in time. It's kind of like a snapshot in history. So it's weird to delete it.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. So then I'll link to it. I think in the show notes, there was a deadline.com article that printed the full letter as you had written it. And then there were some responses from a couple of the shows. I don't know.

Mark Graban:
To me, it sounded like lip service of just like, okay, we're going to put out a statement. We're fully committed to diversity. So what. What was your reaction to their reaction? And am I mischaracterizing it from a kind of quick review of it?

Jazzy Collins:
No, it's all good. It was a Band Aid. They just put it on there. They slapped it on there, and they said, that's fine, we'll deal with it at another point. We have other things.

Jazzy Collins:
We have other big fish to fry, is what I felt. I did end up having a meeting with the production company, and we talked things out and about my experience there. I don't know if it ever turned into anything internally because obviously I'm not there. So I don't know. But I told them my experiences there and how, as a Black woman, I shouldn't feel like that.

Jazzy Collins:
I am walking into a battlefield just by going into work every day.

Mark Graban:
Wow. The show love Island. Like, I've barely heard of that show. Would you describe that quote unquote, dating?

Jazzy Collins:
It's definitely a dating show.

Mark Graban:
How's the dynamic on that show in terms of diversity and representation behind the scenes and in front of the camera?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah. Overall, a lot more diverse with the cast and at least the season that I worked on definitely a lot more diverse with the cast, the production team. It was a lot more inclusive. It was a lot of fun. The show is a whole bunch of people just dating to date, rather than dating for love and falling in love and getting married, which is sometimes nice to turn your brain off TV.

Jazzy Collins:
So that's Love island for know.

Mark Graban:
My wife has been from the beginning a huge fan of the Bachelor and the Bachelorette. She describes it the same way. It's your kind of turn off your brain TV. She's not into sports. So there's some parallels to, I mean, I'm kind of watching football to zone out.

Mark Graban:
And then you get into the playoffs in a final Four, the final show of the season. That's like the Super Bowl.

Jazzy Collins:
Exactly. That's a fantastic analogy.

Mark Graban:
But since she watches it, that means I often get exposed to it. Unless I want to leave and go to another room and watch something different, I try giving it a chance. In some seasons, I get drawn in more than others. It's very intermittent. But one thing, and I think you talked about this in the letter of the casting of a token Black person, a token Asian person, and as a viewer, somewhat viewer of the show, it seems like that, or it comes across that way, and then it kind of makes you think of like, well, how does someone feel?

Mark Graban:
Are they just happy for the opportunity to be on the show? Even if, I don't know if people come into it with the same sort of hope or expectations, or if they come into it saying, like, well, I might be a token representative of this group, but at least I'm here.

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, that sounds brutal when you say it that way. Sorry. Especially the seasons that I work on, it felt like we were filling a quota rather than filling the people that deserve to be on the show and making sure that we can fully have a very diverse group of people. Having the quote unquote token person, like the one Asian person or the one Black person really doesn't give you the diaspora of what people are, especially within that community. And that's really what was really frustrating for me because it was like, okay, you're going to have the one Black girl there, and then she's going to have straight hair.

Jazzy Collins:
She's going to be incredibly stick thin. Not everyone looks like that. And same thing with an Asian woman or Latina woman. You can't do that. I think every casting team needs to take a good look at themselves before they cast a show.

Jazzy Collins:
And if they have the full team, everyone laid out in front of them. Can you say that you have a big, diverse cast in front of you that you are proud of, or are you just succumbing to the easy thing where it's like, let's just put, like, ten white people on because we know that they're going to be accepted.

Mark Graban:
There's got to be a really tough dynamic of you're looking for contestants who, if you can even ask, are you open to interracial dating? Because imagine what you don't want is a white bachelor in the first round sending home all the women of color.

Jazzy Collins:
Exactly.

Mark Graban:
And it almost seems like, though, that there's pressure. You wonder what a producer is doing. You've got to keep. It's not even just, like, token entry into the show, but is it token survival looks bad if you send all the Black women home? Don't do that.

Jazzy Collins:
Right. I don't know exactly what happens behind the scenes with the producers and how they make sure that they have the diversity within it, but I'm sure they're talking to the bachelor and asking, who are you interested in? And then mixing and doing what they need to do. But that wouldn't happen if you have a very large cast of people that are very different from one another and you won't feel like you have to separate and be like, oh, actually, I don't want any of these types of people. I can have a whole mixture because you have no choice but to have that mixture.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. So maybe a final question. I'm going to try not to ask another question. That sounds harsh, but the timing of when Realizing you had already left the show, the timing of when Matt James was announced as the first Black bachelor, and that was in the pretty immediate aftermath of George Floyd's murder.

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah.

Mark Graban:
I'm just curious. The dynamic between, okay, finally, it's about time versus that seems like kind of a cynical time to do it.

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, that was definitely my thought at first, was, are you just doing it to do it because you feel like you have to? Because what took you so long? How many seasons of the Bachelor have there been already where a lot of these guys look exactly the same? So a lot of that went through my head. I know it's went through a lot of other casting people's heads and producers.

Jazzy Collins:
We're all like, but at the same time, you want to celebrate it, you want to go, okay. Yes. We finally have a Black bachelor. How are they going to handle it? And overall, I think they did okay.

Jazzy Collins:
I think there were some times that they could have done it better, especially having the conversation with his father and it felt like the stereotypical dad that is never there, the Black father. And that was a conversation that was not great. And then they also, you know, the host, Chris Harrison, having the conversation about race in the beginning, and it felt like out of place because I was like, should a white guy be having this conversation with Matt James? But they tried, and I understand that they were trying, and we can only go from there.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. Well, we've been joined today again by Jazzy Collins and maybe, well, one other. I know you've done a lot of other things in your career. I'm sorry to. It's all good.

Mark Graban:
Fixate on the Bachelor, but you talk about other dimensions here, age. Would you have wanted to work on, quote, unquote, the Golden Bachelor now that they have? How old is he? He's like 60.

Jazzy Collins:
I think he's 75.

Mark Graban:
I think he's 75.

Jazzy Collins:
I'm pretty sure he's in his 70s. Yeah.

Mark Graban:
Would you have wanted to work on that? I wonder how that's going.

Jazzy Collins:
Well, I know it's fully cast. I think they're going to air it, I think, in the next week or so. But I look back at it and I go, would I have? And honestly, no. I think the Bachelor chapter has closed for me.

Jazzy Collins:
Sure. I think the format is a little tired, and I would like to work on something new and fresh and fun.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. And that's part of why I fade out on. I'm like, oh, okay. I know the dynamics are very similar, it seems, from season to season. So let's talk about final question.

Mark Graban:
What are you working on next? What are you working on creating that's new and fresh?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, I have a couple of fun stuff. So I have some food formats that we're currently taking out to pitch, so some food shows. We also have kind of a fun take on. There's an LGBTQ plus side with Ian LA fix my life. So it's a little fun format with that.

Jazzy Collins:
We also have a slate of three underrepresented directors for features that we're also taking out. And I'm about to start casting a new project the next couple of weeks. So if you're a traders fan, it's very much in the vein of that. I'm doing a lot, having a lot of fun.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. If somebody is looking to get cast on an unscripted program, and I imagine, gosh, if the writer strike continues, there's probably going to be more and more unscripted. What advice? Or how does somebody even try to get into the fold of the casting decisions?

Jazzy Collins:
Yeah, so if you are interested in being on any reality show, it's always great to start with one unscripted casting director. On Instagram, we post all of our social media stuff there. We post all of our Instagram flyers. We post other friends Flyers. And then you can add another.

Jazzy Collins:
You know, you can follow me, Jazzy casting on Instagram. And then literally all of my friends that, like, follow are also people that work in casting. So you can just click through them, and you can find a show, whether it's survivor to the circle to maybe the new show I'm working on.

Mark Graban:
All right, well, cool. Well, thank you. And I'm not asking. I don't think that's not in my.

Jazzy Collins:
Future, but somebody listening, you never know. You never know. Because I got Lee on the show for the circle, and that's not something that you expect to see on the.

Mark Graban:
You know, pun or corny phrase alert. I'm going to paraphrase one of the famous bachelor catchphrases and say, this has been the most jazzy episode ever.

Jazzy Collins:
I love it. I'm a fan.

Mark Graban:
Not the most dramatic episode ever. Well, no. The most dramatic season. No. Okay.

Mark Graban:
Did my best to modify.

Jazzy Collins:
Good job.

Mark Graban:
All right. Got to make a mistake or two.

Jazzy Collins:
We all got to make a mistake to get to where we are today, so I'm all about them.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. Well, Jazzy, thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate hearing the different aspects of those decisions that you made and setting a good example of we can bounce back from a mistake. So thank you for sharing all of that today.

Jazzy Collins:
Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time. All right, thanks.