Overcoming Burnout with Julian Reeve, Former Hamilton Music Director

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My guest for Episode #253 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Julian Reeve, former Musical Director for the musical Hamilton and CEO of Perfect Equilibrium, Inc., a firm that provides consulting services related to employee burnout and retention.

Julian graduated with honors from Anglia Ruskin University in Cambridge, England, before embarking on a highly successful career as a musician, educator, and entrepreneur.

He performed for millions across six continents around the world as a Music Director, winning The Los Angeles Drama Critic Circle Award for Best Music Direction on the Broadway musical Hamilton before leading it’s first presentations at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts (DC) and at the Centro de Bellas Artes Luis A. Ferrè in Puerto Rico (with Lin Manuel Miranda).

Julian has built four thriving companies in the creative sector, including the London-based boutique talent agency Boland & Reeve Ltd (now Collective Agents) and Perfect Equilibrium Inc. in Los Angeles.

In this episode, Julian talks about his “favorite mistake,” a turning point that occurred early on in his career that challenged his understanding of leadership. This not only shaped his communication skills but also transformed his perspective on perfectionism. With fascinating real-life experiences, he explains the crucial role of self-awareness, the power of accepting and utilizing feedback, and the impact of approach and attitude on leadership and personal development.

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Questions and Topics:

• What's your favorite mistake?
• Was that authority-based approach modeled to you by teachers?
• Did you learn to ask for feedback?
• Should we cut you some slack since you were young?? Learning from those mistakes — and getting other chances?
• How do perfectionists tend to respond to feedback?
• What led you to leave your work in the music industry??
• The ways perfectionism is helpful?
• Does it help to reframe standards of excellence and expectations?
• Was there ever a mistake-free performance of Hamilton?
• Why does Perfectionism lead to not just burnout and depression?
• Self-compassion — Kristen Neff Episode 183
• Tell us about your company – and how you help individuals and organizations
• Julian's TEDx talk

Scroll down to find:

• Video version of the episode
• How to subscribe
• Quotes
• Full transcript

Find Julian on social media:

• LinkedIn

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Episode Summary

Combating Employee Burnout and Retention Challenges with Julian Reeve

Julian Reeve is not just the founder and CEO of Perfect Equilibrium, Inc., a consulting firm dedicated to helping organizations with employee burnout and retention, but he is also a decorated musician, educator, and entrepreneur. His transition from the music industry to the corporate world stemmed from personal experiences and accomplishments that provided unique insights into leadership and high-achievement stress management. Reeve's journey took him from Anglia Ruskin University, where he graduated with honors, to the world stage, directing music for the critically acclaimed Broadway musical Hamilton. His accolades include winning the Los Angeles Drama Critics Circle Award for his music direction.

From leading Hamilton’s first presentations at the prestigious John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts to performing with Lin-Manuel Miranda in Puerto Rico, Reeve's journey has been remarkable. Yet, it's not just his grand achievements that define him. Reeve’s story is also about learning, personal growth, and transitioning from success in the arts to fostering healthy work environments in businesses.

Valuable Lessons from a Life in Music

Julian Reeve's career is a tapestry woven with influences from all aspects of his life, from his family background to professional interactions. The impact of his father, who led a choir, set the foundation for Reeve's initial leadership style, which he later recognized as authoritative and possibly overbearing. This reflection was sparked by a significant personal experience that accentuated the need for self-awareness in leadership roles.

Reeve tells the story of “his favorite mistake,” a formative event that occurred while he was the music director of “The Magic of the Musicals” at the young age of 21. The tour concluded with an eye-opening encounter with the leading lady, Jackie Scott, who candidly expressed how Reeve’s leadership style had affected her experience. This feedback was a turning point for Reeve, who then committed to understanding and improving his communication and leadership skills. This learning moment later proved essential to his future successes, including his time with Hamilton.

The Impact of Perfectionism and Feedback on Leadership

Perfectionism is a trait that can be a double-edged sword, and this is especially true in leadership. Reeve’s firsthand experiences as a perfectionist helped him understand the complexities of accepting and utilizing feedback. This insight is particularly relevant to his observations and consultations on employee burnout and retention in the corporate sector.

As Reeve has noted, perfectionists often struggle with feedback due to their high expectations for themselves. Recognizing one’s behavior and patterns is critical to personal and professional development. His experiences taught him the importance of inviting and embracing feedback for continual growth rather than viewing it as a sign of failure or imperfection.

A Heartfelt Shift in Career Direction

The pinnacle of Reeve's music career came with its own set of challenges. Only three months into his role with Hamilton, he suffered a heart attack at the age of 43. The event was a catalyst for introspection and reassessment of his life's direction. In recovering, Reeve consulted a psychologist and began to unravel the connections between chronic stress and high achievement—factors that likely contributed to his health scare.

This profound personal experience provided Reeve with a unique perspective on the pressures associated with high-performing environments. It was this perspective that fueled his passion for addressing burnout and employee retention, leading to the founding of Perfect Equilibrium, Inc. Through his company, Reeve now consults with organizations to help them cultivate healthier, more sustainable working environments, reducing the risk of burnout among employees and improving overall retention rates. His shift from the music industry highlights the significance of mental and physical well-being in any professional setting, regardless of industry or accolade.

Beyond Perfectionism: The Power of Self-Compassion

The relentless pursuit of perfectionism is like running a marathon with no finish line. Julian Reeve's personal and professional experiences have laid the groundwork for a deep understanding of the role perfectionism plays in achievement and, more importantly, the distinction between adaptive and maladaptive perfectionism. However, establishing boundaries can transform a potentially destructive trait into a powerful ally.

Adaptive Versus Maladaptive Perfectionism

In understanding perfectionism, it is crucial to differentiate between its adaptive and maladaptive forms. Adaptive perfectionism drives individuals towards their goals with a relentless focus on detail and a passion for excellence. On the flip side, maladaptive perfectionism can lead to detrimental outcomes, including procrastination, paralysis, and in severe cases, burnout.

• Adaptive perfectionism is characterized by high standards coupled with the ability to enjoy the process and learn from mistakes. It is a driver that pushes for exceptional work without sacrificing well-being.
• Maladaptive perfectionism is a destructive force that focuses solely on the end result and often results in incredible stress, overwhelm, and even physical issues—an institutional hazard that Reeve himself confronted head-on.

Setting Healthy Boundaries

Boundaries are the safeguards that protect individuals from the damaging aspects of maladaptive perfectionism. Contrary to societal misconception, establishing boundaries does not mean lowering one's standards or expectations. Instead, it means setting limits that allow for sustained performance without compromising one's health or personal life.

Reeve's insights into this balance came from a crash course in his health and personal experiences. Drawing from his incident at the Kennedy Center to the grueling physical tolls that eventually led to his decision to leave Hamilton, Reeve highlights that without healthy boundaries, even the most resilient individuals are at risk of being undermined by their quest for conventional perfection.

Taking Lessons from Self-Compassion

Julian Reeve's exploration of self-compassion could hold the key to not merely surviving but thriving in the face of perfectionism. When mistakes occur, instead of yielding to self-critique, Reeve suggests a kinder, more forgiving approach, similar to how one might console a friend. Compassionate self-talk is a tool for resilience, an antidote to the self-flagellation that often accompanies perfectionist errors.

• The practice of self-compassion involves recognizing that mistakes are a universal human experience and treating oneself with the same empathy one would show others.
• Self-compassion allows for high standards to be maintained without the self-punishing attitudes that often accompany perfectionism.

Embracing Imperfection for Greater Fulfillment

In an ironic twist of fate, the very notion of ‘imperfection' that Reeve once might have scorned became instrumental in reshaping his approach to work and life. Consumed by the pressures of high achievement, it was after reading “The Gifts of Imperfection” by Brené Brown that Reeve embraced imperfection as a necessary and enriching aspect of life.

• Accepting imperfection doesn't equate to mediocrity; rather, it marks a pathway to richer, fuller potential that encompasses personal and professional spheres.
• By understanding the limits of perfection and applying self-compassion, one can still aim for excellence while enjoying broader life experiences beyond the tunnel-vision of flawless execution.

Failure, Growth, and Reaching Full Potential

Potential—the latent excellence in us all—can be stifled by the weight of perfectionism. Reeve's transition from the leader of a thousand nearly flawless Hamilton performances to a champion of balanced achievement stands as a testament to the growth that comes from embracing imperfection.

• A focus on a fixed mindset, a byproduct of maladaptive perfectionism, can close doors to learning and new experiences, inhibiting true personal growth.
• By advocating for self-compassion and boundaries, Reeve inspires others to transcend their ingrained pursuit of perfection and reach for the fullest realization of their inherent capabilities.

Final Reflections on Julian Reeve's Journey

The lessons Julian Reeve imparts are forged in the fires of his professional successes and personal trials. His own voyage from rigorous self-demand to self-awareness illuminates a path forward for leaders and individuals alike. By integrating the practice of self-compassion with an adaptive approach to perfectionism, Reeve offers a blueprint for achieving success without burning out, for reaching new heights without forgetting to be kind to oneself along the climb.

The Imperative of Preparation and Self-Awareness

One cannot undermine the paramount importance of thorough preparation, self-awareness, and consistent practice in any field of endeavor. For individuals aiming for excellence, these elements are the cornerstones on which success is built. Julian Reeve's tenure with Hamilton underlines the high degree of preparation and self-knowledge required to minimize mistakes, especially when performing at an unprecedented pace.

The Inevitability of Mistakes in High-Pressure Environments

With rigorously trained professionals, errors may happen less frequently but are never entirely absent. When reflecting on the performances in Hamilton, it becomes evident that an environment comprising numerous variables is bound to see slip-ups. This reality accentuates the need for an adaptive response to mistakes rather than a maladaptive one. Emphasizing the enormity of the task – such as performing a show dense in lyrics at breakneck speed – reveals that perfection is an unrealistic expectation, even among the most skilled professionals.

Contextualizing Errors

Understanding the context and perception of mistakes is equally crucial. An error's impact can vary significantly based on its nature and the audience's awareness. In fast-paced and detail-oriented environments like live theatrical performances, while a misplaced note may go unnoticed by many, forgotten lines are more conspicuous. Judiciously assessing the gravity and visibility of mistakes is vital in calibrating our response to them. Furthermore, this perspective on imperfections aligns with historical figures, such as Alexander Hamilton, whose wisdom ironically acknowledged humanity's inherent flaws.

Perfectionism's Double-Edged Sword: Ambition and Self-Critique

Despite the question of whether perfectionism served Alexander Hamilton well, it's clear that exceeding ambition and self-demands can result in significant stress and even full-blown burnout. In moderation, ambition drives progress; however, without recognizing the limitations and fallibility inherent in being human, it can devastate one's personal life and health. This draws us back to the importance of Reeve's lessons on self-compassion and the acknowledgment of imperfection, not as defeat but as an integral part of growth and self-improvement.

Building Trust and Creating Safe Spaces to Address Burnout

Leaders in any professional setting must cultivate trust among their team members to mitigate burnout effectively. Providing a safe space where employees can voice their challenges without fear of repercussion is not just a matter of corporate responsibility; it is fundamental to organizational health and productivity. Employers must foster an environment where honesty is valued and supported, thereby enabling a more accurate and beneficial dialogue about well-being in the workplace.

Introducing New Avenues for Stress Management and Well-being

With the imminent rollout of new AI platforms like Pepper and services like cohort coaching, new methods of stress management become accessible. These tools and services aim to democratize access to mental well-being resources, making personalized coaching more readily available. By integrating technology like chat GPT into the framework of personal development, individuals can receive tailored guidance to navigate the pressures of perfectionism and mitigate the onset of stress and burnout.

Strategizing Organizational Change for Stress and Burnout

Julian Reeve's work with organizations through Perfect Equilibrium, Inc. extends beyond individual coaching. By providing concise keynotes and strategic consultancy, Reeve tackles cultural issues within organizations that contribute to stress and burnout. His approach is founded on identifying and addressing problems swiftly and efficiently, alleviating concerns that such processes are necessarily lengthy or costly. Tailoring a 90-day program, Reeve demonstrates that with strategic planning and action, improving workplace culture and significantly reducing stress and burnout can be successfully achieved within a manageable timeframe.

The Role of Self-Compassion in Achieving Potential

To unlock our full potential, the incorporation of self-compassion into our daily lives is indispensable. Self-compassion does not only relate to how we recover from setbacks, but it also influences the way we motivate ourselves towards our goals. Adopting a language of kindness similar to how we would address a friend or family member when conversing with ourselves promotes resilience and a healthier path to success.

A considerable part of realizing our potential involves the energy – or fuel – we retain and utilize in the pursuit of our aspirations. A self-compassionate approach ensures that this fuel is not wasted on self-criticism but rather invested into constructive self-improvement and the attainment of our objectives. By leveraging the power of self-compassion, individuals can navigate the hurdles of professional and personal life more effectively.

Stress Management: Beyond the Conventional

Traditional stress management techniques have provided some relief for dealing with the pressures of perfectionism. However, with advancements in research and applications such as Pepper and AI-based interactive tools, we can explore avenues that are potentially more personalized and responsive to individual needs.

Julian Reeve's emphasis on the synergy between acknowledging mistakes and fostering self-compassion lays the groundwork for these modern methods. As they become more available, people stand to gain significantly from using technology to tailor stress management strategies to their specific circumstances.

Cultivating a Compassionate Organizational Culture

At the organizational level, the journey towards managing stress and preventing burnout is not limited to piecemeal solutions but requires a cultural shift towards compassion. Julian Reeve's 90-day programs, implemented through Perfect Equilibrium, Inc., serve as a vehicle for instituting this change within the fabric of an organization's culture.

The focus on swift and effective intervention is crucial – it ensures that the process of cultural transformation does not become an inhibitor due to assumptions surrounding the time and resources required. The adoption of a compassionate framework in workplace settings has the twofold benefit of enhancing both employee well-being and overall organizational performance.

The Future of Personal Development

Peering into the future of personal development, we see an intersecting pathway where technological advancements and emotional intelligence merge. As individuals learn to imbue their personal growth with self-compassion, and organizations restructure their cultural approach to be more compassionate, the landscape of professional environments changes drastically.

The evolution of personal development resources, such as online courses on overcoming stress and Julian Reeve's research, are expected to play significant roles in this transformation. We can anticipate a future where personal potential is no longer stymied by an unforgiving pursuit of perfection, but is instead propelled by understanding, acceptance, and strategic self-compassion.

Automated Transcript (May Contain Mistakes)

Mark Graban:
Our guest today is Julian Reeve, founder and CEO of Perfect Equilibrium, Inc. A firm that does consulting related to employee burnout and retention and related issues. We'll have a chance to talk about some of that here today. Julian graduated with honors from Anglia Ruskin University in Cambridge, England, before embarking on a highly successful career as a musician, educator, and entrepreneur. He performed to millions across six continents around the world as a music director, winning the Los Angeles Drama Critics Circle Award for best musical direction on the Broadway musical Hamilton, before leading its first presentations at the John F.

Mark Graban:
Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts and in Puerto Rico with Lin Manuel Miranda in the lead role. Since then, Julian has built four thriving companies in the creative sector, including the London-based boutique talent agency Boland and Reeve Limited, which is now called Collective Agents, and Perfect Equilibrium, Inc. Again in Los Angeles. So of all the words I could have tripped over, I don't know why Los Angeles was it, but Julian, welcome to the podcast.

Mark Graban:
How are you?

Julian Reeve:
Thanks for having me, Mark. Great to be here. I'm good.

Mark Graban:
Yeah, I'm happy you're here. I'm a big Hamilton fan, as I told you when we prepped, I'm not going to throw typical Hamilton puns or references at you here, as much as I love the show, so we'll avoid that mistake. Or maybe I'm making a mistake by not leaning into the fun there. But, Julian, I'm curious where your favorite mistake story comes from. If it's from your really interesting music career or the things that you've done since, what would you say is your favorite mistake?

Julian Reeve:
Well, first of all, let me say what a brilliant kind of suggestion this is for a podcast. It's so off the wall. And it's been actually a challenging but kind of fun opportunity to kind of go back through my catalogue of areas in my life to pick my favourite. My favourite actually takes us right back to 1995. I was 21.

Julian Reeve:
I was at university in Cambridge in my second year at the time. And yeah, I was the music director at the time for a great singer called Mark Rattray. And he was asked to be the lead vocalist for a new production called the Magic of the Musicals. Now, that show, the magic of the musicals, was the first ever show, certainly in Europe, that combined all the best shows from all the best West End and Broadway shows in one show. And it was a really big deal at the time.

Julian Reeve:
And Mark had done the original tour, which had gone out to calendar, and they'd done a DVD and all that stuff, and he'd been invited back and they then called me and asked me whether I wanted to be the music director. And of course I said yes, because I'm like, okay, this is the start of the big time. This is great. Awesome. Off we go.

Julian Reeve:
Now, playing opposite Mark was a lovely woman by the name of Jackie Scott. She was the leading lady of the show, and she was incredibly talented, incredibly experienced. She'd done, I think, at that stage, three or four leading roles in the West End was incredibly experienced. And so we jumped into rehearsals and, you know, Carol Todd, very celebrated director, was leading us. And, you know, we get.

Julian Reeve:
We get to a great standard, then we get to opening night. Lovely reviews, and this is a three month sit down and a tour. So off we go and we have fun. And I think that, you know, this whole time is really successful. You know, people are like, yeah, this is great, you know, selling out every night.

Julian Reeve:
Producers are happy, band are happy, singers are seemingly happy. So we close the tour and we get to the closing night party, and I'm thinking, well, this has been a great success. You know, my career is now off. I'll be off flying around the world, doing all sorts of amazing things. And we started to say our goodbyes, and I actually walked outside and walked Jackie to her car.

Julian Reeve:
And I just said, Jackie, listen, I just wanted to say thank you. This has been such a great honor and a pleasure to work with you. I've learned so much from you. And, you know, I really am so thankful for this experience. And there was I, nicely poised, ready to receive a reciprocal response.

Julian Reeve:
And in I actually received silence. And there was a pregnant pause, and I could see, literally see Jackie thinking. And then she just. She just opened up. She said, well, Julian, I wish I could say the same.

Julian Reeve:
And my heart literally sank into my stomach. And she spent the next five minutes illustrating why she'd said that. And it turns out that. And this comes to my favorite mistake. Turns out that I'd spent the last four months view include rehearsals seemingly completely unaware, because I didn't have the self awareness at the age of 21 that I used at that time authority as a way to communicate.

Julian Reeve:
So basically, it was my way or the highway. And what this was was a kind of quite immature 21-year-old dealing with playing the game at a very high level amongst senior people who are much more experienced. But I basically didn't know how to talk to people. And so I kind of was in this space where it's like I used my authority to kind of get what I wanted because I didn't know any other option right. So Jackie told me, she gave me several, several points over the three months of mistakes that I'd made, and that ended up becoming my favorite mistake because.

Julian Reeve:
Because she told me, once I got over the hurt, I then did some work. Yeah, I was like, okay, I need to figure this out. And it was lovely. About twelve years later, we actually worked together again on an arena gig in Sweden, and I thanked her for saying what she said. So it was a kind of lovely, full circle moment.

Julian Reeve:
But that is my favorite mistake, because I don't think I would have been able to be the music director of Hamilton without that mistake and the lessons learned from it.

Mark Graban:
Wow, that's really interesting story and.

Julian Reeve:
A.

Mark Graban:
Couple of follow up questions. I mean, I never pursued music as, you know, a degree program. I certainly never did anything as a conductor. But thinking as a musician, even in college bands, I mean, there is a certain authority model from different conductors and orchestras and bands. I mean, do you think that was modeled?

Mark Graban:
Were you kind of following the pattern of what had been modeled to you by people who were really experienced and much more senior? Did that just sort of seem natural, like, well, that's. That's how you conduct yourself as a conductor?

Julian Reeve:
Yes, absolutely. And I'll be honest, and I don't think he would mind me saying this. A lot of that actually came from my father, who was a musician himself. He was a choir leader. So, you know, I'd grown up watching him in rehearsals.

Julian Reeve:
That was, you know, a lot of the behavior that I took on. I was also working with, you know, much older people kind of going back through my career, even probably from the age of ten. I was making music with people who were ten years older than me, and that stayed fairly consistent, actually, throughout. There was always a big gap, and I think, you know, the combination of the modeling and the kind of need to keep up with a slightly more mature and experienced kind of peer group was probably the reason for. For all of that.

Mark Graban:
So, I mean, it's great that you got that feedback. I mean, it's a cliche, so feedback is a gift. It can sting sometimes it sounds like you took it to heart and learned from it, but it's sort of a shame that you didn't get that feedback partway through that first show or that first tour. Were there lessons learned, maybe, about asking for feedback or inviting it partway through or earlier stages of a production?

Julian Reeve:
Yeah, great question, and, yes, absolutely. You know, I had no idea that leaders should ask for feedback at that stage. You know, the way it's really interesting thinking about this now, in terms of everything that I know about my work with organizations and how kind of general business operates, entertainment is actually really quite different. Certainly in the time that I grew up within it, it was, you know, very hierarchical and, you know, ostensibly, once you were at the top of the tree or the top of the ladder, you know, you don't look down, you certainly don't ask them if you're doing anything wrong. And, you know, like, the fact that you're at the top of the ladder proves that you do everything right, surely.

Julian Reeve:
And of course, the real world doesn't look like that. But yes, I do. You know, I do wonder whether actually anything would have really been very different in 1995 because I just didn't. I wasn't mature enough. I didn't have the self awareness.

Julian Reeve:
I wasn't able to. I was riddled with perfectionism. And, you know, perfectionism is, is really tricky when it comes to feedback because it will stop you from doing the things that you need to do and the work that you need to get on with. So I don't think that that feedback any earlier would have actually sunk in. So in a strange way, this was a better lesson in the fact that it was delivered in one fell swoop, if you like, hard and fast, because it affected me deeply, which obviously had a significant benefit.

Mark Graban:
Yeah, I know you've studied and you talk a lot about perfectionism and you've reflected on it in your own life and career might be hard to generalize, but in your experience, are perfectionists more open to input because it helps you get closer to that unachievable goal of perfection? Or do perfectionists tend to get defensive because that feedback stings when it's pointed out they're not perfect?

Julian Reeve:
Yeah, in my experience, it's very much the latter. I think, in general, it depends what type of perfectionist you are. So there are three types of perfectionists. Self orientated, other orientated, and socially prescribed. Socially prescribed perfectionists are those that think that other people expect them to be perfect.

Julian Reeve:
And they're often the people that really struggle with feedback because there's a general feeling that, you know, like if, for example, they are getting a note or a, they're in a meeting with a superior or a leader, and, you know, a suggestion is made for how they could have worked differently in a project. They will crumble rather than accept that thinking with open arms because it's proof that they, they weren't perfect and because they think that people expect them to be perfect, they have failed. And so therefore, there's very little in the immediate term. There's very little positive that comes out of that. The perfectionist really does have to kind of recognize their own behavior, recognize their own patterns, and actually do the work beyond the initial response for that to kind of really land.

Mark Graban:
So when I come back, you know, we'll stay on, you know, this theme of perfectionism, I think. But if we can maybe fast forward about 20 years or so to when you were conducting and working as musical director for Hamilton, you know, that that's, you know, quite, quite the achievement and accomplishment. What led to you leaving that. That line of work and leaving the music industry to start other things?

Julian Reeve:
Yeah. So, three months into my job on Hamilton, I had a heart attack. And that was. I was 43 at the time, and they put in two stents and sent me back to work. I went to see a psychologist and kind of started to unravel the reasoning behind the heart attack.

Julian Reeve:
So, basically, my right coronary artery was 95% blocked, which proved to be, you know, the result of 20 years of stress associated with high achievement. Everything that goes with that, the constant demands for more, the endless ambition, the zero consideration for work life balance, all the good stuff. Now, sadly, I was, you know, while I was able to kind of keep the show on the road and myself on the road, my body started to break down. And I. About eight months after the heart attack, I started to experience a repetitive strain injury.

Julian Reeve:
One in the wrist, one in the neck on the right side. They kind of combined around the sort of tennis elbow area, just below the elbow on the right. And long story short, I was in Puerto Rico with Lyn in the early part of 2019, putting on a production over there. And I was in so much pain with this injury, I worked through it for eight months that I just knew I had to quit. And it was the hardest decision I'd ever made because I'd worked really, really hard, hard to get to the very, very top of my tree.

Julian Reeve:
And here I was in the top 1%, having to. Having to quit. And originally, I thought, well, I'm just going to leave the show, and then, you know, I'll rest this properly, you know, somewhere between six and twelve months, and then I'll come back to it, whatever it looks like, Hamilton or another show. But two months into the kind of full on recovery, the specialist sat me down and said, listen, we think you should do something else, you know, conducting a show. You are physically compromised now to play the piano, to conduct the level that you were.

Julian Reeve:
So think about the quarterback that was at the top of his game. And he breaks a leg and he comes back and he's done all the rehabilitation, he's done all the psychological work, but he's never quite the same. That was kind of me. And so I was like, you know what? I need to put all of this experience to good use and help other people avoid going through this and, you know, help other people achieve success in healthier ways.

Julian Reeve:
And. Yeah, so here I am. That's what got me from a to b. Yeah.

Mark Graban:
And I'll link to it in the show notes, a TEDx talk that you did, telling some of that story and talking about perfectionism, but to ask you to touch on some of that here. What are some of the ways in which perfectionism can be helpful before we talk about some of the downside of it, to reach the peak of a profession?

Julian Reeve:
Yeah, well, I think, you know, ultimately, if I was to. If I was to come up with a word that would help perfectionists its boundaries, and it speaks to what you've just asked me because, you know, adaptive and maladaptive perfectionism are two very different things. Adaptive perfectionism can, you know, really help you achieve the results that you were born to achieve. You know, I do believe that there's a certain element of perfectionism that helps us. It's a really valuable, provided it's healthy and recognized and worked with in the right way, it's a really valuable differentiator.

Julian Reeve:
You know, our attention to detail, our, you know, ability to put out incredibly strong content if we're content creators or, you know, any output is benefited from adaptive perfectionism provided it doesn't become maladaptive. Now, the maladaptive side is all the stuff that's well publicized and, you know, keeps us locked in paralysis, keeps us locked in a place of procrastination, etc. Etcetera. And that's where it gets tricky. But I think, you know, creating those boundaries and really understanding that, you know, if we utilize self awareness in the way that we can, if we know enough about ourselves, then we really can kind of build almost a perfectionism profile that allows us to kind of manipulate it in good ways to help us and by partly getting rid of the bad stuff, that doesn't.

Mark Graban:
But those boundaries you spoke to in the TEDx video, the boundaries don't necessarily mean setting lower standards or having boundaries around how high we aim, correct?

Julian Reeve:
Yes, I think so. I'm a big believer in that. You know, the root of the heart attack really was perfectionism. And so I jumped into all sorts of research, even when I was still on Hamilton, in terms of, okay, well, how can I start to manage myself and the standards of the biggest Broadway show on the planet in healthier ways? And there was huge irony in the fact that the very first book that I read on the subject was called the gifts of imperfection by the lovely Brene Brown.

Mark Graban:
Incredible book.

Julian Reeve:
And opened my eyes in all sorts of ways. But the reason why I say there's a lovely irony in it is that, you know, prior to the heart attack, there were no gifts in imperfection. It didn't exist. And so I would have, you know, if I'd seen that in a. In a bookstore, in an airport, I would have walked right by it.

Julian Reeve:
Because, you know, it's. That's not a call to action to me, because ostensibly what you're asking me to do is get rid of something that I value. And, you know, I think one of the bigger reasons why I did the TEDx was to answer or stand up to society's call that the way that we should deal with perfectionism is to lower our standards or to expect less from people or to expect less from ourselves. I fundamentally disagree with that approach because we end up failing ourselves and we don't realize our full potential. And, you know, there is another way, and it's called self compassion, and it's called keeping those standards high, keeping the bar as high as possible so that the results can be as good as you can achieve, so that you can go on to realize your full potential.

Julian Reeve:
But the key is using self compassion so that you can be kinder to yourself on the journey to perfection, or as close to perfection as you can get. Yeah.

Mark Graban:
So, like, practically speaking, when we discover that we've made a mistake, even if it's a small. And I'm not trying to dwell on this, I've had trouble saying Los Angeles, even though I lived in LA county for many years and a couple of years. LA is easier to say than Los Angeles. I've said those words a lot. But what is, like, a practical way for me to be kind to myself in terms of what I might think or what I might say to myself after making a mistake?

Julian Reeve:
Sure. You know, I think it's certainly on my research and the subject, I was very taken by the fact that, you know, us as human beings, we have a tremendous ability to be. To show empathy, to show sympathy, to be compassionate to others. You know, we think about how many times we do that on a daily basis to the people that we love and care about, but we suck at being compassionate to ourselves because we don't use. There is almost a switch that isn't allowed to be turned on to use that same language.

Julian Reeve:
And so this answers your question. This is something I do with clients all the time at the beginning of our work is to, you know, think of the language that you would use with your best friend or your loved one in exactly the same situation. So we come up with, you know, let's call him Steve. Steve makes a mistake introducing a guest on a podcast, and he trips over the word Los Angeles. Okay, what would you say to Steve to make him feel better?

Julian Reeve:
Right. And maybe you can answer that question. What would you say to Steve?

Mark Graban:
I would probably say, it's okay. People stumble all the time. Even professional broadcasters stumble over a word. It happens. Don't worry about it.

Julian Reeve:
Okay. And so that's the start of your self compassionate language. Now, you know, it's very easy to say that that's going to land and land quickly. You know, this takes practice like anything. You know, people who meditate and meditate, well, don't.

Julian Reeve:
Don't just, you know, download an app and suddenly they're amazing at it. It's like anything. It's like Hamilton. It's like it takes hours and hours and hours, weeks and weeks, months and months of rehearsal before we actually get to perform the standard. No different, with self compassion.

Julian Reeve:
And, you know, that's a really easy way to start building that sort of language that you can use in those situations.

Mark Graban:
So one thing I've heard you say is, you know, perfectionists fail to reach their full potential, which might seem counterintuitive to people. If perfectionists set the bar really high, that that would drive success. You know, recently, there's a lot of discussion of Barbra Streisand in her book and the word perfectionist. And, you know, Barbra Streisand did reach, you know, I think, pinnacles of many disciplines, singing, acting, directing. But why do you say perfectionists tend to fail to reach their full potential?

Julian Reeve:
Well, I think, you know, what I've come to learn in over the course of, you know, certainly the latter part of my career, and I'm sure Hamilton and the heart attack and the injury all plays into this. But, yes, that's a really good example of a perfectionist who has absolutely gotten to the top of her tree, Oscar winning Emmy, Grammy. She might even be an egotist. There you go. So, you know, one of very few on the planet that can claim to be there.

Julian Reeve:
Right? So you would. You would clearly argue that perfectionism helped her, and that being a perfectionist was a good thing. The reason why I say we don't realize our full potential comes back to what I was just talking about is I was always taught that the results were the only thing. So getting to a performance of Hamilton, or the end of a performance of Hamilton, having not made a mistake, making sure that everybody else is as good as they can be, was my goal every day, and that was my only goal.

Julian Reeve:
But I think we have a responsibility to our potential, to fulfill every part of our potential as human beings, and that is way bigger and way broader than results. And sadly, perfectionism often comes with fixed mindset. And if we think with a fixed mindset, we are very closed to new opportunities, we're very closed to feedback. We started this whole show talking about that. And so we don't get to learn and therefore we don't get to grow.

Julian Reeve:
And because we don't grow, we don't ivily truly become who we were meant to become. And it would be interesting to have this conversation with Barbara. Right. Because, you know, how much of her. How much has she struggled?

Julian Reeve:
Well, I know through my own reading that she has struggled tremendously with perfectionism. But how much has the rest of her life suffered? Because the perfectionism element in her is so strong. And so I think, really, you know, my argument is meant for people who want a broader existence than just to be the best at what they do. And that includes family, that includes travel, that includes, you know, community, so much in there.

Julian Reeve:
And I think the older we get, the more we recognize that that is actually, arguably more important than it is to wake up one day with the title CEO behind our name or whatever that looks like. Yeah.

Mark Graban:
In your experience, Julian, what? Did you ever. Were you ever part of a mistake free performance of Hamilton?

Julian Reeve:
A mistake pre performance of Hamilton? No.

Mark Graban:
Mistake free. Sorry, performance free of mistakes.

Julian Reeve:
Well, okay, so I. In, I can't remember how many. I can't remember how many performances I actually conducted. It was just shy of 1000. I think I made three mistakes in the entire run of a thousand performances, and that was the standard that I held myself to.

Julian Reeve:
There was a huge mistake at the Kennedy center in DC, which was actually second on the list of favourite mistakes, but we don't have time to go into that one. You know, I think the answer is, I didn't make many mistakes because I trained myself not to. And it's very easy when you're doing the same thing every day to do that, really, you just have to, you know, there's a lot within that, as in preparation. You have to know yourself very, very well in terms of how you perform, your ideal environment. Preparation is key, self awareness is key, practice is key, all of the stuff.

Julian Reeve:
But, yeah, I mean, you know, I would say that beyond myself. There was probably never a performance of Hamilton where one mistake or other didn't get made. Somebody might forget a lyric or somebody might, you know, play a bum note in the orchestra or whatever that looks like. You know, it's difficult when you've got 40 people performing, you know, the fastest Broadway show in history. You know, it's sung at like 144 words per minute or something like that.

Julian Reeve:
They figured out quite early on that if you took something like, what was the comparison they did, it was something like Oklahoma or one of the more traditional Broadway shows, that if you took that show, and. No, if you took. If you took Hamilton and you performed it at the pace of Carousel, that's it. If you took Hamilton and performed it at pace of Carousel, it would take over 5 hours to perform because it's so dense in its text, but it's so fast in its speed. So mistakes are inevitable.

Mark Graban:
I'm sure early in the initial run, people didn't know the show. They might not know a mistake, but then we're in an era where people may have watched the Disney plus recording 40 times, and they know the show front to back, and then they go see it live. They might more likely pick out a mistake, but it's probably not going to. I mean, they're still going to enjoy the show and the experience.

Julian Reeve:
Yeah.

Mark Graban:
So back to the question of does the mistake matter?

Julian Reeve:
Well, okay, so I think the mistake matters dependent on where the mistake was made. I think if somebody dries on stage, that's where they forget their lines or they forget their lyrics. Then that's one thing. If somebody plays a b natural instead of a b flat in a, you know, an 8th note run, you know, tempo 168, probably half a percent of the audience is going to notice. So it really does depend on who makes the mistake and its context, I think, in terms of, you know, how big it is.

Julian Reeve:
Yeah.

Mark Graban:
I'm certainly not an expert on Alexander Hamilton, the man, but, you know, there are some articles, you know, some people say he was a perfectionist, you know, in the way he dressed or maybe the way he. He wrote or what have you. But there. There's a quote attributed to Alexander Hamilton. I'd love to get your reaction to Julian.

Mark Graban:
I never expect to see a perfect work from an imperfect man.

Julian Reeve:
Oh, I love that I wasn't aware of that. While I'm stealing that from my keynotes. Well, it's funny. And talking of my keynotes, I actually, I bring it back right at the very end to talk about Alexander because I obviously speak a lot about stress and burnout.

Mark Graban:
Yeah.

Julian Reeve:
And, you know, I think, yes, I've done enough reading, I know enough about the man to understand that there's definite, definite perfectionistic tendencies in there. I think, you know, bigger than the perfectionism, though, for Alexander, I think his issue really was his desperate need to succeed and his ambition, which, you know, caused a huge amount of stress, which led to burnout. You know, he'd lost, nearly lost his family because of the mistakes made along the way. And it's interesting to hear him use that quote and my. Just give me that quote again.

Mark Graban:
I'll preface it with me wondering out loud, would Alexander Hamilton have applied that to himself the same as he might have to others?

Julian Reeve:
Yes, that's my thinking, and that's why I wanted you to read it again.

Mark Graban:
So here it is again. I never expect to see a perfect work from an imperfect man.

Julian Reeve:
Yeah, no, I don't think he's referencing himself at all in any way, shape or form in that statement. I think he's referencing everybody else because, you know, everyone within reason was inferior to him. And, you know, therefore he. He really doesn't believe that anyone can produce at the same standard he can. And because he's perfect, nobody else is.

Julian Reeve:
So therefore his levels are sufficiently low.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. But one other question, back to what people may be facing in different professions today. Why does perfectionism lead not only just to burnout, but quite often to depression?

Julian Reeve:
Yeah, I think it's a really tricky one, particularly early on when you don't know much about it, because, you know, I think there are. I think, I can't remember which study this was, but there was a study out many years ago that said roughly 35% of the entire world's population struggle with perfectionism in some way, shape or form. And I can believe that. But I think that many of those people don't really understand that they're perfectionistic in any way, shape or form. And so they do.

Julian Reeve:
What I did before I had a heart attack and suddenly realized that, oh, okay. Because even prior to the heart attack, I knew that I was perfectionistic, but I didn't really know how affected I was by it. And all of that is to speak to what you just asked, because, you know, I think we all struggle with deeply when we are perfectionistic and not knowledgeable about it. We struggle with identity. We struggle with low self esteem.

Julian Reeve:
We struggle with, you know, the inability to be as good as we need ourselves to be. And that has significant impact on our self worth, which really is the baseline of everything, as far as I'm concerned, which breeds the depression. So the key really is to if you feel as though you are any way affected from a depression standpoint by perfectionism, then get to the root of the problem. Start to understand your perfectionism. Do you know, there's the multidimensional perfectionism scale, which will tell you exactly what type of perfectionist you are.

Julian Reeve:
Then jump into some work with self compassion. You'll start to feel better. From a burnout perspective, perfectionism can be very challenging because one of the big six reasons we burn out is work overload. And very often, you know, completely inadvertently, we put so much pressure on ourselves to be perfect, we actually add to our own work overload. Yes, the work overload is often the system that we're working in.

Julian Reeve:
It's dysfunctional, and that's why we're kind of drowning a bit as far as burnout goes. But there's a lot of individual work that we need to do to make sure that perfectionism isn't kind of adding to that problem. That's only one problem of burnout that perfectionism affects.

Mark Graban:
Well, I want to thank you for bringing up these important concepts of self compassion and kindness. I think a lot of times people don't want to talk about or use those words in a business setting. I'm glad you do. Previous guests in this podcast, episode 183, Kristin neff. I don't know if you're familiar, her work on self compassion.

Mark Graban:
She was a guest, and, you know, that was really a new phrase, a new concept for me being introduced to her work.

Julian Reeve:
Well, thank you for introducing the world to Kristen. I learned so much from her research when I was starting to get into all of this. And I think, you know, it's so important for people like you who have a voice, who have a platform to be promoting this type of message, because I'll be honest and say this is my biggest shock in coming out of entertainment and into the business world, is that how much these phrases are just not accepted still, even now, either culturally from six week or baseline, from leaders individually, you know, they still struggle to allow these words to not mean that they're weak or inferior or anything like that. You know, these words, self compassion is a superpower as far as I'm concerned, yet it's still regarded as kind of this sort of soft and lazy phrase that's only really supposed to be used for other people. Right?

Mark Graban:
Yeah. Well, and it seems like it would be bad advice to tell people to toughen up. You need to be more resilient or, like, somehow blaming people for being burned out. That seems a wholly ineffective and unkind approach. If somebody has an employee who seems burned out, what are some tips that you would give to leaders if they suspect not themselves, but somebody they see at work might be burned out?

Julian Reeve:
The biggest issue that I see all the time is trust. You know, we don't put our hand up and ask for help because we don't trust that we can. So, you know, the first thing I encourage leaders to do is to create that safe space, is to create the safe space for employees so that they can feel that they can, you know, come and talk to a leader or to a manager without any, any repercussion. That's the biggest fear. And, you know, sadly, so many organizations are reliant on, you know, engagement tools or some form of check in at a computer where, you know, ostensibly, you're never going to get a truthful answer because the employees are scared of what may or may not happen.

Julian Reeve:
So you have to create an environment where they feel as though they can tell the truth, and then you can start to get, you know, into the weeds. Well, why are you burned out? And then you can take it from there.

Mark Graban:
And it's sad how often people don't trust that the supposedly anonymous online survey, they think it's supposedly anonymous, like, they're told it's anonymous. And if the level of trust is so low, unfortunately, people are. Yeah, I don't. I don't even know.

Julian Reeve:
Yeah, I mean, that's. That's a lot of the reason why I do what I do in organizations, because I truly believe in this, you know, isn't trying to position myself in kind of a positive way. It's. I truly believe that, you know, an employee isn't going to be 100% truthful with an employer, and there needs to be an intermediary, that there needs to be something in the middle. And that's really where I come in because, you know, I'm very, very clear with c suite as well as the employees that, you know, I'm very clear in terms of what data is shared and what isn't because there's no point in me being there unless I do some good.

Julian Reeve:
And there's no point in me being there if I'm still going to get the same answers, as you know, an employer would do on any degree of testing or check in. So, yeah, it's really important.

Mark Graban:
And as we wrap up again, our guest today has been Julian Reeve, founder and CEO, most recently of his company, Perfect Equilibrium, Inc. Tell us a little bit more about the range of services for individuals and for organizations.

Julian Reeve:
Yeah, I mean, individually, I'm just about to roll out an AI platform called Pepper, which leverages chat GPT to become your personal stress and burnout coach. We do everything from one to one coaching to cohort coaching cohort in late January 24. From an organization perspective, it's everything from keynotes to consultancy that allows you to really get to the root of the problem quickly. I specialize in a 90 day program that really allows you to fully understand what your culture is, where the bumps are as far as stress and burnout goes, and how you can quickly fix them and fix them with minimal fuss. I think one of the bigger fears for organizations is that, you know, this is going to take a really long time.

Julian Reeve:
It's going to be really expensive. And actually, that's not necessarily true. You just need to be really strategic in terms of what you do, when and how you implement these changes. And that's, that's really what I do. Organizational level.

Mark Graban:
Yeah. And I'll make sure there are links in the show notes to Julian's company. And one thing I noticed on the website site, there's an online course, overcoming stress and burnout that seems well worth checking out. But, you know, really, Julian, really appreciate you sharing your, not just your own personal story, but the insights that you've gained from research and working with others around burnout and perfectionism. And maybe it's just kind of leave it to you with.

Mark Graban:
It's always, I don't know, it always feels like an unquair, unfair, open ended question. Is there anything else you'd want to share with the audience about dealing with or learning from mistakes that we haven't been able to touch on today?

Julian Reeve:
Yeah, well, it kind of just doubles down on arguably the smaller part of what we touched on today, which is the self compassion element, is if you can learn to use the same language as you use with others for yourself, you're well on your way to be able to kind of realize what I would say is your full potential because you've got the fuel to get to the goals that you set for yourself in healthier kind of ways. And that, for me, is where things get really exciting.

Mark Graban:
Great words to end on. Julian Reeve, perfect Equilibrium, Inc. Thank you so much, Julian, for being our guest here today.

Julian Reeve:
Thanks for having me, Mark. Thank you.