Not Going to the Boss for Help on the Late Project: Matt Boos

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My guest for Episode #76 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is Matthew Boos. We were classmates in elementary school back in our hometown of Livonia, Michigan. Now, he is the Director of Strategy for The Industrious and he's the keyboard player for Blizzard of Ozzy, a Black Sabbath Tribute band.

In today's episode, Matt shares his favorite mistake story from a time when he was working for a major telecommunications company. A project was behind schedule (“in the red”) and he and his project co-leader weren't forthcoming about that. Matt says he literally thinks about this ordeal every single day — it's influenced him and he's learned from it. How has this influenced him as a leader? Listen and find out.

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Automated Transcript (Likely Contains Mistakes)

Mark Graban (0s):

Episode 76, Matt Boos, director of strategy at The Industrious and keyboard player for Blizzard of Ozzy.

Matt Boos (9s):

It's a very interesting way to frame the idea of a mistake, right? A favorite one. So you have to think back and go, well, why do I cherish this particular mistake,

Mark Graban (21s):

I'm Mark Graban, this is My Favorite Mistake. In this podcast, you'll hear business leaders and other really interesting people talking about their favorite mistakes because we all make mistakes, but what matters is learning from our mistakes instead of repeating them over and over again. So this is the place for honest reflection and conversation, personal growth and professional success. Visit our website at myfavoritemistakepodcast.com for show notes and links to this episode, go to markgraban.com/mistake76. Please follow rate and review the podcast if you're not already doing so. If you liked the episode, please share it with a friend or a colleague on social media, especially on LinkedIn.

Mark Graban (1m 7s):

That helps get the word out about our little show. Thanks for listening. We're joined today by Matt Boos. And before I tell you more about Matt's background and introduce them more formally, Matt is the second guests now from our shared hometown of Livonia, Michigan. So Matt, thanks for joining us. How's it going?

Matt Boos (1m 28s):

It goes very well. I was a pleasure to be here. It's good to see you as well and, and enjoy speaking with your audience.

Mark Graban (1m 34s):

Yeah. And, and, and we're going to focus on your favorite mistake, please. Don't talk about all the mistakes I made in elementary school. I mean, please. Don't

Matt Boos (1m 43s):

Well, I will share this. I do recall a very what's the right word, reserved and quiet third grader who turned into a raucous drumming fifth grader, who then went on to great things later in life. Yes. I remember you walking around with drumsticks quite frequently as a fifth grader.

Mark Graban (2m 5s):

I still have drumsticks in the office. They're a little out of reach, but, but yeah, so Matt and I go back to elementary school, Matt was a year ahead of me and we crossed paths a lot through our Livonia Public Schools, education, which I think is set us up well in life. And then Matt preceded me by a year at Northwestern University. So there's another

Matt Boos (2m 29s):

Go ‘Cats!

Mark Graban (2m 30s):

…common, common thread Go ‘Cats. Exactly. And so it's, it's really fun who would have thought, I don't even want to do the math of how many years ago that was that we would be talking to each other, like we had computers in elementary school, but they weren't like this.

Matt Boos (2m 44s):

Oh no. They were the Texas Instruments Sinclair, which was cutting edge for the time.

Mark Graban (2m 49s):

Yeah. And we played Oregon Trail and Lemonade Stand on the Apple IIe, right?

Matt Boos (2m 55s):

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I remember the Apple IIe and then taking the, the, the case apart and looking inside at all the glory. Sure. Programming and BASIC. It was all going somewhere.

Mark Graban (3m 5s):

Remember that little turtle moving around on the screen. Did you do that one?

Matt Boos (3m 12s):

So choplifter loved choplifter.

Mark Graban (3m 13s):

So, but we're, we're here to talk about not just what we'll catch up more on our own time, but Matt is a sales and consulting leader. He's a data and analytics authority. He's a customer champion. He is the director of strategy for a firm called The Industrious. And we'll have a chance to chat about that later on, I guess all those labels, those same. Okay. That

Matt Boos (3m 38s):

Was so seem fine. Probably grandiose, but they're very nice. I think I may have written them myself.

Mark Graban (3m 43s):

I may have taken them from your LinkedIn page. So other than the mistake of being grandious, you know, thinking back in, in your career again, not anything I did in elementary school or middle school, Matt, what would you say is your favorite mistake professionally?

Matt Boos (4m 0s):

Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a great question. That's what prompted me to, to obviously come on this broadcast with you. Cause it's, it's a very, it's a very interesting way to frame the idea of a mistake, right? A favorite one. So you have to think back and go, well, why do I cherish this particular mistake? And in this case, I, as a mistake, I think about all the time, probably every day, probably multiple times a day. And without doing too much back backswing, I'll take you back to about 14, 15 years ago, I'm a director of operations at a major north American telecommunications provider. And my job at the time was to put tools and equipment in the hands of the sales channels to make them more efficient, more effective.

Matt Boos (4m 45s):

And one of the things we noticed is, Hey, we hire somebody, which is great. And then, because we're telco, we've got about 16 different systems where we've got to provision a person, person's got to get a commission's ID. And now I've got to get a point of sale ID and it goes on and on and on and on and on. And I thought, well, gee, there must be a better way to do this. So the moment we hired somebody and put them in PeopleSoft, there should be a system that just cascades this all the way through. And man, this is all this, not necessarily groundbreaking, but could save us a whole bunch of time and then even more so stop the problems we have with commissions challenges and all the rest of it in the unified agency that comes from fat fingering, thousands of codes.

Matt Boos (5m 28s):

So I'm about ready to go do this. And I'm given a, a partner to work with and she and I get going and we start with a reasonably small scope, reasonably small contained. We can do this, but we're generous people. And so people say, well, could we do this? Could we do this? And could we do this? And our general a general answer was, well, we can try, which is another way of saying yes. And before long, we had this enormous problem on our hands, which we still thought we could manage until we got those fateful words from it, which basically boiled down to, well, we didn't know what we didn't know until we found out.

Matt Boos (6m 10s):

We didn't know it. Okay. So we're stuck. We're not going to hit our deadline. We're not going to we're way behind. I mean, it's flaming red everywhere. If there are 20 things we have to deliver, we have a chance of delivering six. And so my senior vice president calls this meeting together of all of his people, doing all of these projects. And it's just this, this reckoning, how are we all doing? I want to help. This is basically a half day of tell me how you're going. I want to help. And so my partner and I, and we said, all right, well, this is our chance. We got to say, we got a, here's our plan. We're going to say, this is where we're off. This is what we're going to do to fix it.

Matt Boos (6m 49s):

This is where we need your help. And we're going to come out of this maybe with a fighting chance. And so we were about the fifth person or 15 to present. And the previous four teams were even worse than us. And so at the time he turns over to us, he says, alright, Matt, you got to tell me you're going to deliver something really good here. And I, I mean, all the color drained from my face and my partner said, that's right. We are totally on. Everything's going, according to plan, you're going to be very pleased with all of this. And I was simultaneously now the colors back in my face, I'm sure it's all red.

Matt Boos (7m 31s):

I'm simultaneously confused and apoplectic. And I don't even remember how the rest of the meeting went. I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, we just, oh my gosh. So I get out of the meeting and I'm like, what was that? That's not what we planned. And we said, we were going to talk about this and this and this and this. And she says back to me, you know, he doesn't pay us to bring him problems. He pays us to bring him solutions and I'm younger. And I said, okay, well maybe this is how it goes. And everything is just as bad as it has always been projects way behind. And then I get this email. That's a invitation to a meeting and my senior vice president's office at six 30 in the morning on a Tuesday, which is of course never happened.

Matt Boos (8m 16s):

He doesn't bring me into his office at any time. Now I have this meeting and I'm convinced, this is it. This is what I'm going to get fired. So I arrive at six 15, cause I'm not going to be late to my own firing. And, and I walk in and he he's very gracious. He asked me if I want coffee, I sit down and he says to me, this, these words, he says, Matt, why don't you, you think I deserve the honor and respect of the truth. And I just, I just like melted into the chair. And I just, I did like the, but, but, but, but I mean, I just started coming out with stuff and he just holds up his hand and he goes, listen, I need you to understand three things.

Matt Boos (9m 0s):

First, I've been doing this a long time. I know how to solve more problems than you've ever seen in your career. I'm the guy you come to for help. The second thing he says is I have bosses and my bosses expect me to tell them everything that's going on accurately and concisely. And the third thing is I can't do that. If you don't do the same thing for me. And it's just so here's what we're going to do. And he laid out a plan and it was, of course, a plan you might expect from a senior vice-president who's been doing this for 40 years. It was all right, we're going to fix this. We're going to fix this. We're going to fix this. We're going to fix this. And he says, and I trust, this is the last time we're going to have a conversation like this.

Matt Boos (9m 45s):

I said, yes. And I gleefully ran out of the office. And I think about that Mark every day. I think about why, when I knew that I was not telling the truth, I knew I wasn't. Why didn't I, after the fact figure out a way to be forthcoming. Even if that meeting was the wrong time, I had plenty of opportunity after the fact to say, yeah, well, here's really what's going on. And the second thing I think about all the time is how he chose to be a leader and a mentor and not just a dictator. And so I, I think about those things in my professional life, all the time, every meeting I go into every interaction I have professionally from that point forward.

Mark Graban (10m 31s):

So, and when you're talking about that story, you had a co-conspirator, was he, was he called in separately?

Matt Boos (10m 39s):

I don't know. As a, she, not that, that makes one better for this story. I, I don't, I don't know. I reflect back on why this particular person was put on the project. She didn't have a technical background. I think she was supposed to maybe be a mentor and a guide for me. And maybe that's how she thought she was approaching it. But no, I don't know this. I do know that she was never on another software project and was put into other, maybe less technical projects on a go-forward

Mark Graban (11m 13s):

Basis. So I'll apologize from my mistake and a slipping up on a pronoun there. But I, yeah, so these, these I'm trying to protect the names. I, you know, yeah. They just tell stories today. Why did they do that? But so, you know, thanks, thanks for telling the story. And you know, I think there's a lot, we can sort of unpack from that and how it influenced you now, when you think of different workplaces and cultures, I'm curious, you know, as you're recollecting, is that a word that's your recollection of, you know, think of the culture, right? Cause there, there are some workplaces where leaders will say one thing, but then they demonstrate something else leaders will say, we want you to tell us the news.

Mark Graban (11m 56s):

And then when bad news comes out, people learn, let's keep the bad news under wraps. So that could have influenced your, your colleague in, in what she did there. But do you, do you remember what were the words and sounds like you got good coaching, but sure. Did the words line up with the culture?

Matt Boos (12m 13s):

Well, so it's a, it's an enormous company, right? And we'd like to think that culture is uniform across the whole organization, but my experience, it was the reflection of the leader at the top of the organization, in some cases, even the vice president or the executive director. So you could be in a, you could be in a flame thrower in one part, you know, you walk over to marketing and whoa, what's going on over here. And then you walk over to it and maybe it's a little sleepy or whatever. In this particular case, we were not, you know, it's a telecommunications company, we're running a retail channel. So when it comes to doing the things that make the telecommunications company money, budget goes to building a network and then building a network and then building a network and to borrow from Moneyball, then there's 50 feet of something and then there's retail, right?

Matt Boos (13m 6s):

So our culture, we didn't have a lot of killer be killed kind of approach. We were a lot gentler. So I think that the culture reflected the senior vice president very well, but like I said, if I go into other parts of the business, it's dramatically different and my fit in the culture at the time, probably wasn't all that great. A little bit kinder, gentler. Now, as I approach a more rooted bit of middle age, but when I was younger and in my thirties, I was sure that myself, my own ambition, I could change a company founded by the guy who invented the telephone.

Matt Boos (13m 50s):

I could do it myself. Probably not true.

Mark Graban (13m 53s):

So how has, you know, thinking about this story? I, I love that you used the word cherishing, what happened here? That, that that's a, that's a great word to choose. How does thinking about this influence you as a leader in terms of what you try to reinforce or how you try to operate?

Matt Boos (14m 15s):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it, it manifests itself in a couple of ways, for sure. In about a year and a half or two years after that, I had recovered from this and now I'm managing a team of at its peak 18 or 19 people. So it was a pretty in this organization that was pretty sizable. And I remember my approach to managing everybody was a reflection of what he had done for me. But secondly, I always said that, or I always felt that my success was in the reflected glory of somebody else's. So if I hired somebody in and that person did really well, then I get the benefit of saying, you know, Hey, I coached that person or Hey, I selected that person or Hey, that person thrived under my particular leadership.

Matt Boos (15m 9s):

So I was not about me after that moment, for sure. I was always about the other and that's a hundred percent of how I focus things today. And then the second thing is really, there is a w what's the expression that unlike fine lines, bad news does not get better with age, right? If I am in a position where it's just, maybe I can't be candid at that moment, I find the first available opportunity to be candid. And for an example, might be, if I'm in a, in a sales situation with my current company, we do these interactive digital displays, the kinds of things that build an emotional engagement in a brand in live spaces and not everybody's ready for that, right?

Matt Boos (15m 58s):

There's a difference between say how a Sephora might approach that versus say a dollar general as just an example of on opposite ends of the spectrum. And so if I'm happened to be walking into dollar general, which hasn't happened by the way in dollar general, if you're listening, we'd love to talk to you, but they're already there. They probably don't have people who think this way today, their readiness to do this kind of work is, is just not there. And if I just tell them how super ready you all are for all of this, I'm setting everybody up for failure. So what we end up doing is we talk about very candidly. Here's how you have to prepare. Here's what you've got to be ready to do.

Matt Boos (16m 39s):

Here's how you have to be ready to support this on a go-forward basis. And if we can't meet these prerequisites, then, then we table it until we're ready. And that's better for everybody because if you don't have those kinds of candid open conversations in the beginning, obviously you set everybody else for failure. That sounds obvious, but that's not always the case. People just want to sell stuff because selling stuff is revenue. Not necessarily because it serves the customer or the,

Mark Graban (17m 16s):

And yeah, there there's a car dealer. It doesn't matter what brand. I forget where it is. But reading about a car dealer where no someone else I interviewed where he was working at a car dealer, it was part of the series. And he would get in trouble with his bosses for more closely aligning the right car to the customer instead of always selling more car. Right. And he's like, well, you know, he thought he was young and naive. Well, is isn't this good for the long term? But you know, sometimes in some industries, it's not a long line, not a lot of long-term thinking, let's say, I want the revenue. Now I'm not thinking about the lifetime value of the customer, even that that's maybe shorter way to look at it. Yeah.

Matt Boos (17m 55s):

And, and that, that approach is it's hard sometimes to be that way, particularly for Europe now in my current company, we're privately held, we're reasonably small. We can make our own decisions. So I don't have to report sales and revenue quarterly. Like we had to another places that sometimes force you to make maybe more aggressive decisions.

Mark Graban (18m 18s):

And I'm fascinated by, you know, again, good, good word. You know, talking about being candid or candor, you know, connecting dots to a physician that, that I've interviewed for this series. He's the CEO of a nonprofit called the Patient Safety Movement Foundation. And the story he told was about being basically an anesthesiology resident and the surgery. And he was in the room. The mistake was not his, basically the surgeon cut into the wrong side of the patient for a hernia repair. And as, as Dr. Mayer. So I'm asking you that I know this is out of your professional expertise, bunches, and for your reaction as a leader here, the patient woke up and was told, oh, it's your lucky day.

Mark Graban (19m 5s):

They didn't say we screwed up and cut into the wrong side. We also found a problem on the other side and Dr. Mayer, when he realized that they had not been candid with the patient was extremely uncomfortable with this. It reminds me a little bit of your story, but because of professional pecking order, he was like, well, he couldn't say anything. And that, that story is haunted. It's maybe not the right word, but it's driven him to try to help improve the level of candor and honesty in health care.

Matt Boos (19m 38s):

It it's, it's so hard. It doesn't seem like it should be hard because we're all taught. It doesn't matter what your background is. You're always taught, you know, tell the truth, but there are rationalizations and occupations that you can apply at any different point. Like this situation. I know I want to say this, but this isn't the right time. Or if I say this, now this will on interrupt something. That's four or five stages down the road. I don't want to draw their attention to this one particular thing. And so what you end up doing is building up these, you know, it's like you're planting your own landmine and you darn well better. Remember where you put, you better put flags down at every last one of them, or eventually you're going to step on them or worse.

Matt Boos (20m 20s):

Somebody who works for you is going to step on them and it's going to explode everywhere. And, and you damage that person. And you damage the relationship with the client. It's sounds easy and very Pollyannish and Eagle Scoutish to say, you know, I always tell the truth, but the truth is you have to. And if you can't at that moment for whatever short term rationalization there is, you have to as quickly as possible, undo that for your own sake to just keep your own credibility going. But also just to make sure that your client has every active reason to trust you.

Mark Graban (20m 60s):

That's a great point. So our guest is Matt booze, and I want to change directions a little bit on you. We've been talking to maybe literally buttoned down Matthew Boos and his leadership roles and lessons. But I want to talk a little bit about music. If you can tell the audience, let your hair down a little bit, tell them about the tribute band that you've been.

Matt Boos (21m 24s):

Sure, sure. So it's probably not obvious, but I have been in a band called the blizzard of Ozzy. We are, we bill ourselves as America's best Ozzy Osbourne, Black Sabbath tribute act play all around the country. I've been in crowds as high as five or 6,000 people who pay money to watch us play Ozzy Osborne and Black Sabbath songs. And I would tell you, Mark, I can't believe it for a second because I just can't. I still can't believe it. And people come and they love it. I just don't understand why you would want to do that. And then I started thinking about it and I go, well, you know, people will see the road company that's of rent or frozen or whatever, and I'd be well.

Matt Boos (22m 7s):

So maybe we're like a road company of, of Isaiah. Well,

Mark Graban (22m 12s):

Is there any official licensing that has to happen or is this a tribute band? Where is that in a gray area? I'm curious. Yeah.

Matt Boos (22m 20s):

So if we were a KISS band, I'm sure Gene Simmons would have reached out to us with some kind of royalty request. Right? But this is just one of those areas that remains, that's a gray area. It is enforceable if the publishing wants to enforce it, but for the most part, you know, we're out there actively promoting their brand for free. And that's how most of them choose to look at it. We did receive early on. We did receive a no, you can't let her from Sharon Osborne because we had a connection to Ozzy's second or third or fourth or 12th guitars where whichever one, it is Zach Wilde who was going to come sit in with us for a song when we were playing in Alabama.

Matt Boos (23m 12s):

And no, no, you can't do that. So you can, if you can't have any of our people who are tied to us, part of it. And so we're okay. Okay.

Mark Graban (23m 21s):

And so you, you are not the replacement, Ozzy Osborne. You're, you're, you're more in the back of the band playing keyboards, right? Oh

Matt Boos (23m 28s):

Lord. No, no, yes, yes. Back of the band, you know, Ozzy has a keyboard player, but if you've ever seen an Ozzy show and true story, his keyboard player rarely appears on stage he's he's in the wings until recently he brought his keyboard player on stage. So going back to the Moneyball thing, you know, there's the, there's the singer and there's the guitar player and there's a drummer and then there's the bass player and then there's 50 feet or something. And then there's the keyboard player. So I'm there. My favorite story of, well, we could spend an hour talking about stories from this one. I'll just tell you my favorite self-deprecating story. Just on a gig in Atlanta, really successful.

Matt Boos (24m 9s):

I'm coming out on stage. I'm expecting offstage into the crowd. I'm expecting all these accolades. I see someone I know. She says, well, you did a great job on the show here, meet my friend, Beverly high Beverly. And she says to me, where were you watching? The show Said, I wasn't watching the show. I was on stage. No you weren't. I really was. I'm the keyboard player. And I quote, there is no keyboard player. So 50 feet of, and me, that's my true story. Thank you, Beverly, for keeping me grounded.

Mark Graban (24m 43s):

They, they, they need to improve the lighting on that part of the stage, apparently. So great. So, I mean, I've had a couple performers on the podcast. I mean, what, what are your thoughts when it comes to a mistake on stage? Yeah. Yes.

Matt Boos (25m 4s):

So I'm fortunate my mistakes. It's, it's not, it's not as if I'm performing a fellow or something like that, where there's an expectation of some <inaudible> greatness, right? I'm fortunate that I'm generally speaking in front of 800 to 1500 middle-aged people who've had a lot to drink. So I don't, I don't, you know, there's not, I don't have that classic, you know, clerks kind of thing when the back or something where there's arms folded. And they said, well, you know, and measure 38 third B Man. He needs to know God they're so bad.

Matt Boos (25m 46s):

I don't really have that. So the, but we, we pride ourselves on putting on a really good show and what, and it involves lighting and pyrotechnics and, and all the rest of it. Right. And there are times when, you know, the lighting or the pyro misses a cue or when the most common thing to happen is the monitoring on stage goes out. You can't hear yourself anymore. And those are actually the times I think when the performance becomes better, because it forces the rest of the musicians. We all have to look at each other and engage with each other and actively concentrate to get through that particular point.

Matt Boos (26m 27s):

And it's, it would be exhausting to do that for two hours. But for those periods of time, you really do connect with your fellow performers out of a sense of it's, you know, desperation in a way rising to the occasion. Yeah. Cause you got to lean on, you know, you have to really pay attention to where that kick drum is because it's not coming through your ears anymore. You gotta, you have to really concentrate. And, and sometimes I think we end up doing a better job as a result of that.

Mark Graban (26m 55s):

So question, let's talk a little bit about the, the day job and The Industrious. Tell us about the, the firm and what types of work that you do. Yeah.

Matt Boos (27m 5s):

So we do, as I mentioned, these interactive digital engagements, the best way I can just try to describe it as if you've ever been to a Build a Bear store where you actually start with, have you done it?

Mark Graban (27m 18s):

I have no kids. So that would be weird if I was at a Build a Bear Store.

Matt Boos (27m 24s):

I Agree, but for your audience who has kids Build a Bear is the kind of thing where you pick up particular carcass of a bear and then you stuff it, and you put the heart in and you give it a name and a birth certificate and you buy clothes and you do all those kinds of things, which is all about a retail experience. And so our projects are very much like that, but oftentimes in digital interactives touch screens or audio video, or motion detection, those kinds of things. And we do these projects for companies like Microsoft and AT&T we have a whole host of clients in Europe and where we do our best work is when there's a brand with a real, real good story to tell.

Matt Boos (28m 11s):

They're just not exactly sure how they want to tell it. And they open up to us about what their goals are. And then our design team goes to work to create if you will, that build a better kind of experience for that particular brand and when we're successful. It, it, it really does give people, even in a where we're optimistic in a post pandemic world that gives people a reason to go into a store. Cause it gives you the experience that you can only get while you're there, as opposed to, you know, just clicking and finding what you want.

Mark Graban (28m 49s):

And the website for the industrious is

Matt Boos (28m 50s):

Yes, it's way too long because we were late to the party. It's wearetheindustrious.com. If you don't do the “we are” preamble you'll go to somewhere else, but we are the industrious.com. You can send an email to us at hello@wearetheindustrious.com and we're happy to speak with you.

Mark Graban (29m 8s):

All right, well, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. So people can just not get some EDM banned from the UK or whatever the industrious is. Hey, this has been a lot of fun, you know, kind of just a boy thinking back from Lavonia and our, our, I want to say weird elementary school experience. It was a unique learning environment. It was a little, a little, some people on the west coast would say it was a little granola. Yeah.

Matt Boos (29m 44s):

It from the west coast though, that was really what happened, right? I mean, we, we, this was California learning brought to, you know, blue collar Midwest. So we were taught and look how we turned out creative

Mark Graban (29m 57s):

Problem solving. And I, I didn't sit. We were taught, you know, to, to do like these guided visualizations, which is not a habit that became a lifelong habit for me. I don't know about

Matt Boos (30m 7s):

You. No, no. And I would just like to say to your audience, if you ever want to humiliate a child, have him sit in an open instructional materials center in a school with temporary walls. So all the rest of the kids who don't do this can watch you sit there and hear your teacher through a microphone, tell you to envision a lemon as it appears on a screen. And can you smell the lemon? And can you taste the lemon? Is it bitter, all this other stuff? And you look behind us and it's, you know, it's, it's basically the rest of Ms.

Matt Boos (30m 47s):

Crabapples class behind us just looking at us, throwing dirty looks Of the world. And we were all, we were all the Milhouses, I guess, Lisa, Milhouses and less for sure. For sure. Yeah. A boy. But yeah. And I remember, I do remember the lemon though. That was a different interaction with non-digital experience. We survived it and here we are.

Mark Graban (31m 13s):

So Matt is really fun to reconnect with you and to hear you share your favorite mistakes story, and I'm sure you're looking forward to a point where you can get back out on stage. Again,

Matt Boos (31m 23s):

It will be, it will be fun to be with people again, for sure. So I would very much look forward to it.

Mark Graban (31m 29s):

Well, great. And people can find the band on YouTube and online is there absolutely. Yeah.

Matt Boos (31m 36s):

Blizzard of Ozzy Atlanta. You'll find us.

Mark Graban (31m 37s):

All right. Awesome. Hope people will check that out. So again, our guest has been Matt Boos. Thank you so much for, for doing this today,

Matt Boos (31m 44s):

Mark. It was great. I really appreciate the invitation.

Mark Graban (31m 47s):

Thanks again to our guest, Matt Boos, for show notes, you can go to markgraban.com/mistake76. You know the drill by now, please follow rate and review the podcast. We hope you enjoy this episode. We hope you will keep listening and make this a regular habit really appreciate you taking the time to listen and joining us as a listener. Thanks again. And I hope this podcast inspires you to reflect on your own mistakes, how you can learn from them or turn them into a positive I've had listeners tell me they've started being more open and honest about mistakes and their work. And they're trying to create a workplace culture where it's safe to speak up about problems because that leads to more improvement and better business results.

Mark Graban (32m 30s):

If you have feedback or a story to share, you can email me myfavoritemistakepodcast@gmail.com. And again, our website is myfavoritemistakepodcast.com.