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My guests for Episode #239 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast are Felice B. Ekelman, an employment lawyer, and Julie P. Kantor, a business psychologist and executive coach — they are authors of the new book, THRIVE WITH A HYBRID WORKPLACE: Step-by-Step Guidance from the Experts.
Felice is a principal of Jackson Lewis PC, where she practices employment law. She has been quoted in Bloomberg News, The Wall Street Journal, Lexology, and Law 360. She lives in New York City.
Julie is a business psychologist, executive coach, advisor, and founder of JP Kantor Consulting. She is a regular contributor to Forbes on leadership and employee engagement. She also lives in New York City.
In today's episode, you'll hear their “favorite mistake” stories related to leaving a corporate job to start a firm and not appreciating the need to focus on one's personal brand.
We also discuss how, in recent times, our global work culture has seen a paradigm shift with the incipient emergence of the hybrid workplace model. While this model promises exciting opportunities, there's no denying that it also presents unique challenges.
The crucial role of leadership in these unprecedented times remains a significant focus of our conversation. More than ever, leaders must now find the balance between preserving company culture and enabling flexibility. Simultaneously, understanding the legal concerns, promoting a strong personal brand, and creating an employee-oriented workspace are imperative in the smooth transitioning to a hybrid model. However, there's no one-size-fits-all solution to these complexities, causing leaders to gravitate towards innovative, adaptable strategies. Dive in to gain a better understanding of creating harmonious, productive hybrid workplaces.
Questions and Topics:
- Does a personal brand have to align with the firm’s brand?
- How did the book come to be? And the collaboration?
- Brand is what OTHERS say about you? What differentiates you?
- Some mistakes require counseling and some get you sued?
- Policies on back to work — make an exception for one person — necessary or setting precedent for others??
- How do you make exceptions?
- What are some “old biases” to look out for when designing or managing hybrid work?
- Where is hybrid work headed? — moving in a direction or a pendulum??
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- Full transcript
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Episode Summary
Implementing a Hybrid Workplace: Unpacking the Pitfalls and the Potential
Adapting to the new normal of the 21st Century
In recent years, the global work culture has been witnessing significant transformations. Among the most notable shifts has been the accelerated adoption of the hybrid workplace model where employees divide their time between working remotely and being on-site.
This employment model has opened up opportunities for flexible work arrangements, thus providing employees with an ideal integration of work and home life. However, transitioning to a hybrid workplace isn't without its challenges and potential mishaps.
Today, we explore some crucial insights shared by two experts in the field to provide guidance on thriving in a hybrid workplace.
The Role of Leadership in a Hybrid Workplace
How intentional decisions shape the future of work
Julie P. Kantor, PhD, a Business Psychologist and Executive Coach, works with leadership teams and individual leaders, helping them be more effective. Through her illustrious career, she has observed that leaders now require coaching “on steroids.” The reason being, leaders have to grapple with the demanding task of intentional decision-making for building and preserving company culture in a hybrid work environment.
Leaders need to consider questions like, “Should employees come into the office? If yes, how often?” The concept of being purposeful extends to recognizing when employees need to be physically present in the office. This impacts team cohesion, communication, and collaboration.
Unfortunately, there isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to these questions, and the leaders are left to juggle various factors.
Legal Challenges in a Hybrid Workplace
Employment Law in the Era of Remote Work
Felice B. Ekelman, JD, specializes in employment law and brings a different kind of expertise to the hybrid workplaces debate. A part of her work involves defending litigation against companies brought by employees, providing management training and helping with policy development. Felice observes that several leaders are either resetting their hybrid or flexible work policies or are in the process of devising them in 2022.
One pressing issue is accommodating exceptions to a policy. Laws require certain accommodations based on disability or religion, but other “deal-making” exceptions are not only inconsistent but can also create legal complications. Such inconsistencies, when not well-thought-out, can lead to disgruntled employees, setting the stage for potential litigation.
The Importance of Personal Branding
Defining your identity in a professional landscape
The dynamics of the professional world are constantly evolving. Felice B. Ekelman reflects on a critical mistake she made earlier in her career – not considering personal branding. Today, she believes personal branding is paramount for professionals. It plays an important role in distinguishing oneself from others in the same field, be it management side employment lawyers or leaders in any industry.
Felice stresses that one's personal brand should align with their organization's mission. For instance, her brand represents problem-solving and supporting clients. This aptly ties in with her roles within her firm and outside it.
Employer of Choice in a Hybrid Workplace
Attracting and retaining talent in the virtual era
Both Julie and Felice co-authored Thrive with a Hybrid Workplace, a step-by-step guidance to navigate the challenges of hybrid work. The book aims to help leaders create organizations that become employers of choice. But what does that entail?
Creating an organization where people want to work goes beyond promoting flexible work arrangements. It involves recognizing the importance of employees, working towards a mission that’s important, and being recognized positively for the work one does. Thus, leaders are advised to reflect over their mission statements, ensuring they mention employees whilst being consistent in their policies and practices.
In the era of hybrid workplaces, leaders and organizations must carefully deliberate their choices. Balancing legal considerations, nurturing company culture and ensuring effective leadership is indeed a challenging task. However, with the right steps and guidance, businesses can surely thrive in a hybrid workplace.
The Culture Quandary in a Hybrid Workplace
Persevering a healthy work culture despite the challenges
Addressing the concern of culture and hybrid workplaces requires considering the clash between the values of a team leader and the organization's goals. Understandably, this may cause some leaders to prioritize preserving a particular culture over attaining certain revenue goals. This sends a powerful message about the importance of company culture over raw financial gains, adding an intriguing facet to the existing discourse.
Hence, within the hybrid workplaces formula, the significance of maintaining positive work culture cannot be neglected. It's crucial to achieving a balance between cultural preservation and efficiency, requiring greater caution and diligence, especially from team leaders.
Unwrapping Biases and Legal Risks
Examining the Proximity Bias Phenomenon
The hybrid workplace, while presenting numerous opportunities, also has its fair share of obstacles. One worth noting is ‘Proximity Bias’ – the unconscious or intentional act of favoring individuals who are physically closer.
This bias can potentially give rise to unfair practices or legal risks as opportunities may disproportionately fall in favor of those physically present in the office. These biases could unintentionally influence the professional growth and promotional opportunities of those who work remotely. Therefore, it's vital to uproot such biases to promote fairness and equal opportunities for all workers, regardless of their physical presence.
Cross-Generational Communication in a Hybrid Workplace
Navigating the shift in communication methods
In the context of a hybrid workplace, a notable challenge is bridging the communication gap across different generations of workers. Various modes of communication, such as emails, Slack channels, and text messages, are prevalent. However, the preference for each varies, for instance, younger generations usually prefer Slack channels, while older ones opt for emails.
To harmonize communication in such a diverse climate, organizations could consider implementing a ‘Communication Charter.' This charter can help identify which communication method would be most suitable for different types of information.
Future Trends in the Hybrid Workplace
Predicting the future in the face of constant change
The march towards hybrid workplaces is incessant, given its advantages such as greater flexibility, better work-life balance, and enhanced technological adoption. However, the specific models of hybrid work, like the flexible four-day workweek, that will gain traction in the future are yet to be determined.
The shift towards hybrid workplaces creates a need for an integrated work-life setup, encouraging employers to make the workplace a more homely experience. Many architectural firms designing futuristic buildings have confirmed these changes, indicating that they will include space and facilities adapted to hybrid work models.
Moreover, the evolution of technology continues to play a significant role in promoting and supporting hybrid workplaces, making it a fixture in the future professional landscape.
In conclusion, the hybrid workplace model is indeed a revolutionizing trend that's here to stay. With time it's bound to evolve and make workplaces more inclusively productive. Though there are challenges and adjustments to overcome, the benefits certainly outweigh them, making hybrid workplaces the real deal in the 21st century’s world of work.
Automated Transcript (May Contain Mistakes)
Mark Graban: Well, hi. Welcome back to my favorite mistake. I'm Mark Graban. Our guests today, Felice B. Ekelman, JD, employment lawyer and Julie Kantor, a business psychologist and executive coach.
Mark Graban: They are authors together of the new book Thrive with a Hybrid Workplace step by step guidance from the experts. So before I tell you a little bit more about Julie and Felice, welcome to the podcast. How are you both doing today?
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Great to be here.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Great to be here, Mark.
Mark Graban: Yeah, well, I'm excited to talk about the book and we're going to hear your favorite mistake stories. But Julie P. Kantor, PhD, again a business psychologist, executive coach, advisor and founder of JP Kantor Consulting. She's a regular contributor to Forbes on leadership and employee engagement. She's coming to us from New York City as is Felice.
Mark Graban: Felice B Ekelman JD. She is a principal of Jackson Lewis PC where she practices employment law. Felice has been quoted in Bloomberg News, the Wall Street Journal, Lexology and Law 360. So we didn't exactly flip a coin but we're trying to think whose favorite mistake story goes first, I think. Julie, I'm going to direct the question to you.
Mark Graban: What would you say is your favorite mistake?
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Yeah, first of all it was an interesting reflection and I actually went back to relatively early in my career, I was working at an employee assistance program which for those of you who don't know is basically an external program. It's changed over time but really where it's prepaid benefit that employees, employers are providing for employees, which are becoming more important now given this integration of work and home and the challenges of hybrid work. But back then I was an employee is the operational word here. I was an account manager for a couple of major financial institutions and over time I was relatively young in my career. I started building out their consulting division and I was having a really good time and feeling quite comfortable in my position that I was an employee having a regular paycheck and sort of riding it out and not appreciating what the business end.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: I think that's really the lesson learned in that. I was building out there was a small startup at the time, I was building out a division that hadn't existed. Quite honestly, that wasn't necessarily their initial ask of what their initial proposal of their business. It was doing very well, and I was relatively low on the potent poll. But I saw enough of the financials to see that the amount of money that I was bringing in for a project was literally, I think it was four times my annual salary.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And I was doing this for quite a while. And honestly, it took me a while to have the confidence and the knowledge to leave. And I think my mistake was staying as long as I did. And I will tell you that it wasn't actually, I wish I could tell you it was just the maturity of me realizing, take the leap, Julie. Be on your own.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Start the know. Financially, obviously it's a risk to go from a regular paycheck to as someone once said to me, when you own your own business, the good news is you control everything. The bad news is you control everything.
Mark Graban: Right.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: But the last thing, and I think this is why I raise this, because it's a poignant story I went to the managing partner. Again, I was relatively junior, and I presented this pretty basic proposal. It was two pages and the first page was all the specifics of what the services were, the deliverables, et cetera, et cetera. And I turned the page over and the operation word is a he. And he said to me, well, what's this?
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Because I presented the whole proposal and he said, what's this? And I said, well, this is the information we need to collect to see if we're going to make money on it. Because again, I was getting exposed to the finances and hello, as little junior associate, I was seeing it. And his words to me were, and I quote, don't worry your pretty little head about that, that's my job.
Mark Graban: Yikes.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And that between it being too long and again, sort of all these factors that were coming together, it was enough to say, take the so my message perhaps was leave earlier if you weren't going to get that told to wow.
Mark Graban: So in terms of timeframes, Julie, and thank you for sharing that with us. How long was that time period inside building this practice for your employer? And how long was it when you were wondering or thinking, I'd like to leave, I should leave, even if you didn't feel yet like you could.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: The time of me thinking of it was pretty early because it was after my first project.
Mark Graban: Well, you saw the financials, but I.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Saw the financials and again, I don't remember what they were, but I think they were literally four times for a project that I marketed, developed and delivered. So it was relatively on and so I just kept building it. My guess it was about a year and a half of continuing to do this and seeing the business grow again. So I was seeing the financials repeating and I was relatively young, I was in my early thirty s, and I was just thinking about all the things I could be buying.
Mark Graban: Yeah, what you experience isn't uncommon. I've been a consultant as an employee for organizations and yeah, you see the multiple of what they're billing the client versus what you're getting paid. You're like, okay, sure, there's some overhead, but yeah, it's kind of an eye popping number. I eventually had an opportunity to go independent as well. I don't think that company that was uniquely sticking it to you there, but I appreciate you recognizing the opportunity to go independent.
Mark Graban: But was it that inappropriate comment where you thought to quote a song of a different era, take this job and shove it.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: I think the comment was just really the final straw. I think it was building the confidence to do it. I think it was I'm probably inherently not a risk taker. That was part of it, quite honestly. I am a clinical psychologist so I had enough private practice business so I wasn't going to go from zero to nothing.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And so there's obviously a financial component of when you're moving and the other reality is that my spouse was taking care of the mortgage. So I appreciate these are realities. You don't need nothing. So they clearly were all part of, I think, the building of it. And you raised a really good point in terms of this issue of transparency.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And I will tell you my own business when I have colleagues work for me, I basically bring in folks under 1099. I'm really transparent about the division of the income of what I'm receiving and what they are. I'm really transparent about it.
Mark Graban: Yeah. Felice I'm not asking you to go back in time and advise Julie on her specific case, but just general question for you of hearing Julie's story. What's your reaction? And in know if somebody is leaving a company to start a business that in a way would be competing with that business, are there risks or things to worry about?
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: It depends on a whole lot. Is your business one that has to be scalable so that you really can't go at it alone from the beginning? You need some partners or some colleagues to work with you. Do you have the stomach for the financial risk? Because that's a big part of it and frankly, like Julie, I'm not much of a risk taker.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: When I've gone to Las Vegas for work, I still have never even put a coin in a slot machine because I'd rather get something for my money than just throw it away. So I had thought about my mistake as well and I don't know if you want me to lunge into it, but it's really kind of the point counterpoint of Julie. So she described sort of a coming of age realization early in her career. My thought was to talk about a recent mistake in the sense that know many decades into my career and just to give a little more background. I am a management side labor and employment attorney and I have been at Jackson Lewis my entire career.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And it is extraordinarily unusual in today's day and age to as a lawyer in private practice to know one firm association. And that happened for a bunch of different reasons. Number one, I found a place that was supportive and I have been able to grow my business and be a leader both within the firm as well as a thought leader outside of the firm. But I'm dated, so I'm dated in the sense that like Julie, I had children at a fairly young age, early in my career and struggled with what we now call work life balance. That didn't exist as a term of art.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And it was a heck of a lot easier to just stay put, frankly, where I was a known quantity and where I had the support that I needed today, we would not call the support that I had support. But a lot more is expected of employers today than decades ago. But let me get to my point. I had never heard the term personal brand until very recently. And when I finally began to understand what personal brand meant, I realized my biggest mistake was not thinking about developing a personal brand from the beginning of my career, my career was subsumed in my employer.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Obviously. Now I'm a partner. I've been a partner for a very long time. We call ourselves principals, but it's the same thing. I'm an owner and have been for many decades, but I have really never thought of this concept.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And I think for professionals it's extraordinarily important to start thinking about your personal brand from the get go.
Mark Graban: So what opened your eyes to that Felice, that kind of made you well? Hmm in hindsight this was a mistake.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: I had never participated in any kind of women's support network and I had joined a woman's support network organization a number of years ago that was for leaders and everyone was talking about this thing called personal brand and I had never heard of it. It took me a while to understand what it means. And I would say it was only in the last couple of years that I have come to understand how important it is for new professionals. Particularly since most professionals don't stick around in one job. Maybe don't even stick around in one career.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Might move from industry to industry. Might move to different positions or areas of expertise within an industry. And it's important to define yourself and your personal journey, your personal professional journey. And that was a mistake, but I don't think it's fatal.
Mark Graban: Well, clearly not with your success and the firm's success. So it's know you're talking about personal branding. Tom Peters, the legendary leadership management consultant, he's been a guest on this podcast. He wrote a book just over 25 years ago called The Brand Called You. I think he was one of the people really popularizing or spreading that idea.
Mark Graban: So Felice, I'm curious as you've thought about this now and you're representing yourself as an author. You have your book out together here. What would you say your brand represents and how closely does that have to align to the brand of your firm as an owner and a principal?
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Well, they have to be consistent. I think you'd have a hard time fitting in in an organization if it was not consistent. But there's a lot of room to personalize what you do and how you do it. So I think my personal brand is to really support clients and to be a problem solver. And when I look back on my career, I have been working with some clients for more than 30 years, and there are some organizations where I'm the person with the most seniority, even though I'm the outside lawyer and really understanding your role and then explaining it to clients and prospective clients why you're different and why you're going to bring a different kind of counsel to them.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Because there are lots of management side employment lawyers out there, and one has to distinguish oneself. And I think the personal brand is part of the way one can do that. And I'm sure that's the case in any industry, certainly for consultants and the like. But for any leader, they have to be self aware enough to understand how their leadership and how their thought process makes them a different kind of advisor. So Julie is suggesting that I talk a little bit about what I do.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And as a management side employment lawyer, obviously I defend litigation against companies brought by employees. I provide management training. I help with policy development. I also have a traditional labor law practice where I represent employers whose employees are represented by unions, and I help employers be better employers. I think that's one way to look at it.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And one of the reasons why this book has been a joy for both Julia and I getting to thrive with a hybrid workplace is because we really wrote it as a how to guide to help leaders lead. You know, we are at a moment where there's a lot going on in the world of work in the United States. We have five different generations of employees working in the same place. That is crazy, and that brings a whole host of new challenges. We have an incredibly diverse workplace, again, brings new challenges.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And we have changing technology, which also provides so many opportunities, but also creates new challenges and flexible work arrangements. And that's what hybrid work is. Hybrid work is a flexible approach to white collar work, is really just a flexible work arrangement that is a product of all of these different forces and changes. And so when Julie and I had the opportunity to put this book together, we really wanted to make it user friendly. She focused on some areas, I focused on others.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: But the one constant is that at the end of every chapter or every meaty discussion, we have a list of specific action items for leaders. And so what we wanted this book to be is not just something you read from beginning to end, but we wanted it to be a resource so that leaders could pick it up. Go to chapter five on culture. Or I'm sorry, that's not the chapter, but go to the chapter on culture. Go to the chapter on ESG.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Go to the chapter on policy writing and read it.
Mark Graban: And so maybe turn to Julie here. I'd love to hear the story of how the two of you came to co author the book and how that came to be. Has Felice talked with you, Julie, about a personal brand? And have you thought about what that means for you? What does that mean for the two of you together working toward a book?
Mark Graban: Because I think Felice summarized real well. Brand is not the logo and the colors. It's what you represent or what people think of you.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: In a way, yeah, I mean, I was trying to get Felice because she's actually being pretty modest when she was talking about her brand, and I was trying to get her to give an example. But I will tell you how we came together, and it will share to you what Felice's brand is. And it's naturally felice and I have actually known each other for two decades. Felice probably about that professionally, we weren't friends. I mean, we were go, I think we went to lunch a couple of times.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And our work we were not regularly together. We were regularly together. But what happened was there were periods of time because I'm working with businesses and I generally work with leadership teams or individual leaders, helping them be more effective. I'll be generically. Right.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And police is generally going in organizationally when there's a larger issue. And when there's a problem, again, we talk about I'm there to growth. Police is there for levels of when.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: There'S risk risk avoidance.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Risk avoidance. Thank you. And so over the years, the reason we would refer back to each other, one is I was working with each other, and it was generally I'm sorry, a man who was harassing a woman, and the company started getting into legal problems. And it starts at a small performance problem, and then you have a woman make a complaint, and I call Felice and then hand it over to Felice and it becomes an issue in terms of them dealing with risk. In contrast, Felice has called me with an issue when she's dealing with a larger company, and it turns out that there's one person who is creating culture that is a hostile work environment, or where there's a culture where there's an individual harassment, and she would call me.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: So what happened during when we went into lockdown, a mutual colleague of ours who's an HR person at a book publisher, she actually reached out to the two of us to write a book on work from home. And we started writing it. And this is significant. We were writing it in June of March of 2020 when we were in lockdown, and we were all working from home.
Mark Graban: Right.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And the publisher pulled the book, and he should have pulled the book because we were working from home for 300% of white collars were. But that wasn't so we started problem solving about this as hybrid was working and Felice and I were talking about what we were seeing. And that is where we came to the fact of, well, you could approach Hybrid just from the legal challenges or you could approach just from the leadership challenges of growth. It would make sense to create one stop shopping. And so we wrote the book during COVID We literally did not see each other because it was during COVID during the writing of the book.
Mark Graban: Right.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: But going back to where I say in terms of Felice and her brand that she was modest about, if I just heard about her describing the way that she would describe an interest and knowledge of an individual. Right. When Felice goes in, she's talked with an entire union. I mean, she's generally dealing with organization. They're big unions that you and I know about that Felice is negotiating.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: This is big stuff. And the fact that she is aware to both the bigger picture of how things are going as well as the individual and seeing what's going on to them, that is unusual. And Felice, we found out, and I just said this to each other, but if I had to pick Felice's brand, that's it. If I had to describe my own brand, I take being competent and delivering high level competence to my clients very seriously. And one of my lines is.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: I.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Don'T take myself seriously, but I take my work very seriously.
Mark Graban: That's great. And I've heard people say, you can try as an individual or maybe as an organization, to say, here's what we think our brand represents. But really, I've heard people say it's really what other people say. You could be fooling yourself about what we think our brand or company. We stand for excellence and innovation.
Mark Graban: Well, really what matters is what your customers or the marketplace, if they disagree, your brand is what people think it is. So it's nice to hear, Julie, your articulation of what Felice's brand represents.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And I would say we actually talk about that exact fact in Mark in the book, we use the language in terms of value proposition that you can say you're really work family friendly. But again, it's exactly the same thing. Work friendly ultimately boils down to does your leader email you at three in the morning and expect an email back at 330. So we talk then. We have very specific examples of these value.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: You can call them value propositions, missions, values, strategic strategy. It ultimately boils down to exactly what you said about we people are what they say. And there are specific examples in the book about that.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And the book is focused on helping leaders create organizations that are employers of choice. So what's an employer of choice? It's a company people want to work for. Why? Because what they do is important.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: How they do it is recognized as positive and they recognize the importance of their employees. So I speak to a lot of leaders and HR folks and leaders. And last week I was outside of Chicago speaking to a group of leaders in the manufacturing industry, and we talked a lot about being an employer of choice. And one of the things we talk about in the book is take a look at your mission statement. Most companies have created this thing called a mission statement, and if your mission statement does not mention your employees, maybe you should rethink it.
Mark Graban: Right? Yeah, there's also then I think, that category of where companies say something about the employees, but it doesn't really reflect reality.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Well, that's a problem.
Mark Graban: I'm not sure which is a bigger problem of not saying it or saying it meaning it, but when you think about mistakes that leaders or organizations might make in hybrid workplace environments, I think it's fascinating, the combination of your background. So let me ask it this way. What are some mistakes that might lead to a leader needing coaching and counseling, and which are the mistakes that might get them sued? That's a good question, Julie. I don't know.
Mark Graban: Maybe the question of what would require counseling or coaching directed toward you.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: No, I think that's a really good.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Thing.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: One of the things I say is I had a job as coaching leaders and executives before COVID and now they need coaching on steroids. Because one of the words we talk about in the book is intentionality, that leaders need to think about things they just don't know how to think. And a big part of it is, I would say, what is building culture, which includes this amorphous thing? What happens when people are not in the room? And what they say, how are they pulling together, how are they communicating?
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And most leaders now don't appreciate the work they have to do and how to do it, to pull a team together, to communicate, to collaborate. A lot of the conversations today are are we in two days a week versus three days a week? And I have come to say that it's just a silly question, because if the three of us work together and you're in on Mondays and I'm in on Tuesdays and Felice is on Wednesdays, there's no purpose for any of us being in the office. What leaders really need is the issue of what's the purpose of them being in the office. So I have an example that I had, and Felice is going to be able to turn over to how she'd handle it.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: So I'm working with the head of equity at one of the major banks, and during COVID during sales, they all had to work from home, and COVID ended, and they wanted somebody to come back. And there was one salesperson who was very effective, very effective, did want to come back. And the level of decision and again, Felice can talk about this and where the decision is made, the level of decision in this bank was at the top and it was mandated that they could take off. They had to be in the office eight days a month. They had one person.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: She had one person, this top salesperson who was refusing to come into the office at all. And the interesting thing was the head of the organization was willing to make the exception. Now this is sitting again in my camp, was willing to make the exception. He's a talented and from a leadership standpoint, he said, I don't want to accept this example for the rest of my team. I can survive financially for a million plus dollars of lost revenue.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: What I can't do is survive from a standpoint of the culture impact. And so it was a big issue of who was going to ride who. So I will turn it to Felice to say what would happen if in fact the head of the organization won and they let this guy be an exception. And I think hand you into where potentially somebody would call police.
Mark Graban: Yeah.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And one of the things we talk about in the book extensively is creating a policy. And while certainly leaders in the C suite have to endorse the policy, they need to have buy in from everyone. And everyone on the management team has to recognize that whatever the policy is, makes sense and is in the best interest of the organization. And I've been talking a lot to clients about resetting their hybrid or flexible work policies because many came out with a policy in 2022 that's really not supporting growth and creation of a workplace where they can attract and retain talent. So one of the issues that comes up a lot is how do you make exceptions to a policy?
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Should a policy have room for exceptions? And here I'm going to get a little legal. There are two kinds of exceptions. One for accommodations that are required by law, and you do have to accommodate employees based on disability, which can be physical or emotional, mental, or exceptions based on religion. And so those two types of exceptions are accommodations, legally required accommodations.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: All the other exceptions, which I'll call deal making, are problematic because you're creating every time you make an exception to a rule, you're creating an inconsistency. And when you create inconsistency in how you treat employees, you're setting the sage for someone to complain that the inconsistency is in itself evidence of an unlawful practice. So let's say there were two people and someone. One is a man, one is a woman, and one asked for not an accommodation, but a side deal to not report, to work as often as the policy requires and the man's request is granted and the woman's request is not granted based solely on these facts. What's the distinguishing factor?
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Gender. So that is how policy making when it's not well thought out and when it's not adhered to properly because of the absence of consistent buy in can lead to disgruntled employees and possibly litigation.
Mark Graban: And how did that settle out then? Did the organization say, well, we've got to let that salesperson go? Or did because of the precedent and or legal risk for me, yeah.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Yes. What happened in your case, Julie?
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: No, the head of equity prevailed. The head of equity prevailed. So he had basically the tit for tat. The challenge was between him and his boss because he was not willing he had a good culture in his team and he was not willing to and he was the one trying to blend it. It was actually without the name.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: He was not willing to cost the culture and what it would be in his team, and he was willing to give up the revenue of one person. It was a huge statement. It was a huge statement.
Mark Graban: Interesting.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And not every right decision. Right?
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Well, that's why I fed it over to lease the police, because had he not, he would have been in the position where somebody would be calling her.
Mark Graban: Interesting. Wow. So with all these new challenges and again, the book written by Julie Cantor, Felice B. Ekelman, JD. Thrive with a hybrid workplace.
Mark Graban: Step by step guidance from the experts. One other thing I wanted to ask you about, one thing you touch on in the book is old biases. To look out for any bias is bad, but are there certain holdover biases that would lead to mistakes or prevent somebody from thriving when they're trying to design or manage this hybrid workplace? Now, what do you mean by biases here?
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Well, the one that comes to light that's the most obvious one is called proximity bias. And that is simply the intentional or unintentional act of favoring folks who are closer to you physically. So early on, as employees were making their way back to work, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal that we cite to in the book about how to make the most of proximity bias and game the hybrid system by getting ahead faster. And how do you do that? You show up every day in the office when no one else is there to demonstrate that you're there the most, to show that you're the most committed, and more importantly, to be there in case an opportunity should arise.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: So the best example I can think of for proximity bias is I'm in my office today. It's Friday, by the way, almost no one's here, but there are a couple of junior attorneys who are here today. I could be getting a phone call from a prospective client, and I want to get a junior attorney involved in this new opportunity. Instead of texting or emailing or teams calling another associate, I can just grab one of the folks that I saw my way to the ladies room before we began recording, pull that person in because they happen to be there.
Mark Graban: Yeah. What. Kind of legal risk? Does that open up at some point? Is it legal risk then people claim favoritism or discrimination?
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Well, it could be legal risk if all employees have the right to work on a hybrid basis. And if most employee again, I'm going to oversimplify this example and then let's just make this a gender claim. Again, women take advantage of the hybrid opportunity because they tend to be caregivers more often and men don't bother because they can come to work more readily because they don't have caregiving responsibilities. Right? Okay.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: And as a result of proximity bias over and over again, opportunities can fall disproportionately in favor of the men who are in the office more. Again, I'm just giving you a broad brush about how proximity bias can create situations that feel unfair. The other thing is if these opportunities lead to visibility in an organization growth and development as a professional, then the women in my example are not having the same opportunities to grow professionally and perhaps will not do as well when it comes to promotional opportunities.
Mark Graban: Even if the decision making, even in your case, you see someone on the way to or even in the lady's room and you pass along that opportunity like the decisions are not being made consciously on a gender basis, is it fair to say then, well, look at the outcome. At least it provides appearance. And does that then become a case you might lose?
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Whether decisions are unlawful is a long way off. Most employers don't ever want to have decision making viewed from a legal standpoint. They only want to have their decisions viewed from a fairness standpoint. And creating an environment that feels unfair is not good for an organization because you lose people. You can't attract people.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: The cost of training and developing talent is very high. So julie, I'm sorry I interrupted.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: No, I was going to know. Felice and I have talked about this issue of proximity bias in terms of like legally. And I said the reality is exactly what she said. She is going to walk down and get somebody. And one of the things that I've been working with leaders and you asked sort of this thing in terms of history and changing, right?
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And what are the old ways that are hard? One of the things that you see and this is generationally, right? That especially young generations who have not experienced a five day work week. They literally the first two years of work, they were working at home and they haven't had what I call the commodity of being in the office five days a week. Where you build at work, family and there's some predictability there is commodity there.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And so you have the difference between leaders who are older and they expect employees to be in the office and they don't appreciate exactly what Lee said. Also this issue, which I talk a lot about in the book in terms of connection that again, from in the past, you didn't have to think about it. Where now, if we're working together and I have my phone I have my video off every single time. And you need to be an issue. You have a question, even this, you get a call.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Felice and things that in terms of coaching leaders is helping them learn how to basically help leaders be better leaders. Right. And how do they work to coach their folks to do these things? I think a lot of things in terms of this change of sort of the old ways is the difference in the appreciation that we need to think about how we communicate. We have many different it used to be we were all in the office, we didn't have to think about it.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Right? You'd have to send an email, you walk down and now I can't sit in my email. I mean, I know people who literally they're emailing people literally back and forth because I don't have to get up. So now there are so many different modes of communications and there's a variation that leaders have to think about in terms of, again, they didn't have to use to think about it. And there's a gap between even just email and Slack that most younger folks prefer to have their Slack channels as complex as older folks email channels.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And leaders, in terms of changing from the old ways, leaders have to create that bridge. And one of the things I talk about in the book, and one of the sections that I put in there is I call the Communication charter, let's sit down and talk about when you have these kinds of things, you put it in a Slack. When you have these kinds of things, an im. When you have these kinds of things, it's an email. When these kinds of things, talk about those and create some standards, communication is a big thing that sort of this old way.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: And then you add on top of that, the generational changes.
Mark Graban: Yeah, and I still get confused personally. I'm 50 and I do a lot of work with a tech company, people who are 20 years younger, and I still don't understand sometimes why are they doing Slack. We already had email, but I'm showing.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Sometimes to screen share with you the list and see their Slack channels. It is incredible.
Mark Graban: Yeah, I'm not saying the problem is them, it's just me trying to adapt and adjust. And we also had text messages, and sometimes people will use all three channels within the same day.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Right, exactly. And which are they using? And sometimes you have people who don't read their emails. I had working with some you haven't been at the meeting, I sent you an email. So I don't read my email.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Okay.
Mark Graban: It's hard to imagine, but there we go. So we have all these changes and maybe a final question for you both you're describing what has been happening and what's happening now. Where do you think this is headed? This seems like there's more and more headlines about no hybrid. Remote time is done.
Mark Graban: Going back to office. Got to come back in. Are things moving in a consistent direction toward more hybrid workplaces or is it going to be more of a pendulum?
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: I'll take this one first, Julie. I'll go out on a limb and I have been saying flexible work arrangements are here to stay. Hybrid work is one of them because that can include teams where there are folks who are remote who never come to an office, teams where there are employees who report to an office every day, and teams where there are employees who report to an office some, but not all of the time. So I do think flexible work arrangements are here to stay. I think we're going to see more flexibility around the four day work week.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: I think we're going to continue to see this evolve. But I think hybrid work and understanding the challenges of hybrid work and learning how to lead in a hybrid workplace is going to make a leader, a better leader as we look at more technology, as we look at more pressure for employers to be flexible in order to attract and retain talent. So I think the skills that we discussed in the book are skills that leaders will find helpful today and into the future.
Mark Graban: It's a great closing argument, Felice.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: That's what I do for a living.
Mark Graban: But Julie, what are your thoughts on this?
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: There's no doubt it's here to stay. The hybrid's here to stay. I think the piece, what is open is what are the different hybrid models? And again, first chapter of the book is about all the different hybrid models. So what's gone is people going into the office metaphorically five days a week, because most people have longer days than that.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: But that is gone. And it's gone for a number of reasons. Number one, people have realized maybe we shouldn't be working all the time and get some flexibility and get home to family members. There is a lot of value to that. Technology has also made that a possibility.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: If this was in the 1950s, we couldn't have this conversation, right? Because you just didn't have that talk. So I think the cat is out of the bag. I will tell you another way that I really believe this, is that I have a number of large architecture firms who build the likes of the tallest buildings. The point being, the buildings they designing today, people are going to walk into in ten years.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: To some degree, they are predicting the future. And I will tell you, they are all planning their buildings based on the premise of what you have to do. Because what has changed with hybrid is initially with hybrid, we brought work home and now employers need to bring homework and they are saying that is what's here to stay. This integration and integration on life leads a lot of things in terms of hybrid. So there's no doubt it's changing.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: The only question is, what kind of hybrid are you going to have as.
Mark Graban: An organization and using that to thrive, right? Felice I'm sorry.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: No, I was going to say, Mark, your listeners can find thrive with a hybrid workplace online at Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And we have a website called Thrive with a Hybrid Workplace. We would love any feedback or thoughts that you have about the content because Julie and I are living and breathing this every day and we are always interested in getting feedback from readers.
Mark Graban: Well, I'll put links to all of that in the show notes and I hope people will check out the book again. Thrive with a hybrid workplace. Step by step guidance from the experts Felice Eckelman and Julie Kantor. Thank you both for being here today, for sharing your story and having a great conversation about this.
Julie P. Kantor, Ph.D.: Thanks for talking with you. It's great speaking with you.
Felice B. Ekelman, J.D.: Thank you, Mark.